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Thinking about buying the GFX? Article by DpReview


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#1 obican

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:37 PM

Will further comment on the whole article but, what do you think?

 

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#2 JoJu

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 03:04 PM

Will read it later. Superficially looked at it and found something about equivalencing and that you can do something with a FF which is currently not possible with the Fuji.

 

Heck, that point you can say about any given camera.  <_< The current line-up of planned and already available adapters again says more "it's a camera for folks who know what they do and can justify the investment". Since when are "MF"-bodies in a brighter focus than before? Excatly, since Hasselblad and Fuji came up with different and fresh concepts.

 

Sooner or later I like to rent one for a weekend and get my own picture and impression. There will be limits as each system has it's own limits and benefits as well.



#3 Brightcolours

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 05:05 PM

Makes sense. It comes down to the specific wishes. Maybe a single certain lens renders particularly nicer, which then would be a reason to get the system. Like for instance how some particularly like the smooth bokeh from the silly high priced Nikkor 58mm f1.4. That then is a reason to buy a Nikkor FF DSLR. So maybe there will be such a lens for the Fuji or Hasselblad cameras.



#4 JoJu

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 07:51 PM

Now I read a good bit more of this article, just not until the end. After a couple of sentences I thought "well, colleagues of Rishi Sanyal, stop mobbing him and borrow him the camera for one or two days, he's trying hard enough to make the Fuji look like a bad idea".

 

It is a very bad idea to talk in terms of "FF xx beats the Fuji in terms of whatever"- Fuji didn't make it to beat anything, as the concepts of a mirrorless FF+ (to me it's still no medium format, pardon me) with a tons of adaptors is something else than the concept of big brand high end DSLR with a more or less closed system of lenses.

 

The Fuji has some advantages - but not all. It doesn't need to be coming with fast or faster lenses and theoretical equivalencing doesn't lead to real-life views and pictures. Also, some of the adapters claim that longer lenses have enough performance to fill the image circle. We see tons of 85/1.4 or f/1.2, we see 105/1.4, 135/1.8 - voilà, there are the fast lenses.

 

And his sample picture with the 24-35/2 might be unparalleled - but there ARE 45/2.8 MF lenses and I bet, no one would see the difference in bokeh between equiv. f/2.5 and real f/2.8  :rolleyes: And actually, as much as I like the rendering of the Sigma in his sample picture - I don't like the looks it does to the face of the model.

 

He's splitting a lot of hairs to prove the Fuji is nothing for him. That's cool, so somebody else will get his order sooner, because Rishi Sanyal doesn't come in between  :D .

 

The price gap between the Fuji and any other high end FF DSLR is existing - but not as huge as between FF and, say Phase One or Hasselblad with their 50 MP backs. I'm looking forward to the next Kaizen update for X-T2. Today there was one, the next should bring a lot of new features and Fuji will play this kind of game also with the GFX line. I call that securing the investment - anyone able to say the same about expensive Nikons? What did the last firmware update bring except bug-fixes?

 

Maybe it's not the same difference as it was in the old days when going from 135 to at least 6×4.5/120 was kind of a real improvement - I could remain with beloved Ilford HP-5 or even T-Max 400 and there was so much more tonality and less grain on the negatives, less dust to remove after printing, bigger end formats and easier composings in the finder - a part of that Fuji will bring in. And stepping over a crowded FF market and go straight beyond with a new concept for this kind of sensor size is basically a good thing.

 

Last word: Yes, fast lenses are a lot around for DSLR - but with them, the need of extremely time consuming AF adjustments and hoping the AF will guess good enough also come along. Mirrorless is not always better, but in terms of focusing preferable.



#5 dave's clichés

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 05:39 AM

 I don't think Rishi is trying to put off photographers that know what they want and need, just balancing the case for those others who think that a bigger sensor is automatically the way to go.

 

 For the most part it's price tag coupled with a few lenses will do that task very nicely all by itself!



#6 JoJu

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 09:38 AM

Over at Fuji rumors:

 

 

 

DPReview published a controversial article about the GFX, where they basically end up saying that the GFX is not worth the money extra compared to FF cameras. In short:

 

What a fanboy...

 

It was not "they", it was one (1) author who took the time to elaborate why he feels better served with a FF sensor. To me, perfectly fine and within the ranges of opinions. I don't agree with every reasoning, but the more I read about the self incidenting hype - each one has to cheer louder than the other - the more I'm longing for a more fact-based discussion.

 

At least, Patrick tones down a bit and  comes to the conclusion that DPReview needed 3 different FF cameras to "beat" or come close to GFX: Canon 5Ds R for resolution, D810 for dynamic range, and Sony A7R II for high ISO (not saying that probably each of them will "beat" the GFX in focusing speed and finder refresh rate)

 

It's a great camera, no doubt, but by far not the only one on the market and also by far no flawless one.



#7 JoJu

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 05:56 PM

Over from Fuji rumors: Upcoming firmware updates for X-T2 and X-Pro2

 

"They", aka Patrick, count 33 added or improved functions, bur some of them are only for one of the two bodies.

 

Nonetheless, some improvements I was looking forward to for quite a while.I tip my hat, Fujifilm!



#8 you2

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 12:36 PM

I can't comment on the GFX as I've not used one but I remember the Mamiya 7 and taking some decent pictures with it. It wasn't just the larger format the camera encouraged a more deliberate work flow. I'm not even sure what form factor the GFX has (i know the specs are out there just haven't bothered to look); but I'm keeping an eye on it to see how things evolve.



#9 JoJu

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 01:17 PM

It's more a FF extended than a real MF (43.8×32.9mm). I agree with the more deliberate workflow, I made the same experience with Mamiya 645, 67RB and even more so a Sinar 9×12



#10 Arthur Macmillan

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 01:53 AM

I can hardly wait for the OP's conclusions.  DPR seems to always be displaying multiple personality disorder!

 

Rishi sets the record straight from the very start: 

"But while heads turn, eyes widen, and colleagues fight over who gets to take the camera out for a shoot,..."

 

And on inherent higher performance of larger sensor size:

 

"For the same f-number and shutter speed (or ‘focal plane exposure’), a larger sensor is exposed to more total light. The same light per unit area is projected by the lens, but the larger sensor has more area available capturing it. An image made with more light has less relative photon shot noise (the noise that results from the fact that light arrives randomly at the imaging plane). The more light you capture, the more you ‘average’ out these fluctuations, leading to a cleaner image."

 

He doesn't bother to point out that more will fit on the larger frame for a given magnification!

 

But he lets us know from the very start (if we didn't know) that this camera will be capable of doing things that a smaller sensor camera cannot.  So much so, that they are fighter over it at the office.  End of article, right?

 

Nooooooooo!  Rishi has to go and make the case for why you don't need more capability, instead of focusing on what the camera can do.  DPR split personality syndrome.  You get it every time!

 

DPR always gives you well informed facts.  I loved:

 

"And, no, the ‘but larger formats have more compression because you use longer focal length lenses for the same field-of-view’ argument is false. Just say no to the compression myth. For equivalent focal lengths/apertures, there's no extra compression."

 

I totally agree!  But it isn't long before he makes statements like:

 

"We’ve seen some 50MP files from the 5DS R paired with truly stellar lenses where we simply can’t imagine anything better, resolution-wise. In fact, at ~F5.6-6.2 equivalent, I'm not seeing a major resolution advantage of the medium format cameras over the full-frame cameras in our studio scene comparison tool, and the 50MP full-frame image below isn't exactly starved for resolution, is it?"

 

 

Which basically is a statement that could be used to argue anything, including that the Canon 5DS R is already a better camera than anyone could possibly need.

 

again, in case you missed it:

"we simply can’t imagine anything better, resolution-wise"

 

Even I don't say that, and and I don't really have the interest to processes huge sized images.  It doesn't mean that I don't want the choice of going to the highest resolution possible when I want to.

 

In fact, that's a game a lot of people play.  I have a friend who just sold his Canon 5DS R to get the 5D MK IV.  I agree that the MK iv is easier to use in everyday situations, and a good performer.  It's his decision.  I'd rather have the 5 DS R.  That's because for what I like shooting it is vastly superior, except when I don't need it, I can grab my 70D (when I get it fixed).  It is reasonably fast and light.  Or my T1i if light weight is the idea.  Well, that's just me.  But even though most of you would probably like the 5D MK iv better, at least I hope you wouldn't pretend that there is no reason to own a 5DS R!

 

One final little jab at DPR.  Don't get me wrong!  They provide great information!  But part of the syndrome is to do things like compare two different photos that look quite different and say, see:  Look, there is no difference!  Only...there is?  Does that not bother anybody? 

 

OK, Obicon...I took the bait!  Still, if I had that kind of money, I'd spend it on lenses and lighting.  Or better yet...learning how to use what I already have!



#11 JoJu

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 06:29 AM

....

 

One final little jab at DPR.  Don't get me wrong!  They provide great information!  But part of the syndrome is to do things like compare two different photos that look quite different and say, see:  Look, there is no difference!  Only...there is?  Does that not bother anybody? 

 

OK, Obicon...I took the bait!  Still, if I had that kind of money, I'd spend it on lenses and lighting.  Or better yet...learning how to use what I already have!

 

 

See, Arthur, Rishi's article is a long one with lots of opinions, facts that sometimes I agree with and sometimes I don't. Normal. I don't want to waste mine and others time for a pointless debate: people with a use and deep pockets for the GFX will jump on it, as it's a great offer. Others like me will wait for a longer time to decide. I agree with you, this kind of money I can spend on more needed stuff and you forgot mentioning "travels to nice sceneries". Rishi is not DPReview alone, but with publishing this kind of article they also fed the trolls. Their trolls...

 

And the moment I think that I also know "more lenses would mean more lenses in the drawers - I don't like to carry around tons of glass. Lighting, to start with, can cost easily as much as I already spent for cameras and lenses and would also remain at home and the moment appears when I need to think about renting a studio location - I've seen a colleague walking this path and it's not mine. Learning? Yes, please, but after zone system and before becoming professional, there are not much opportunities. So I stick with travelling.



#12 Brightcolours

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 07:30 AM

Arthur, if there is ONE thing in photography that is a useless metric, it is magnification on the sensor. No-one will ever care how many millimetres of a subject are on a sensor. They care about the resulting image, how big something is on the image. When you use a 1:1 lens, MFT will show twice the magnification in macro photography on the print on the wall than FF does. And these "MF" cameras show even less magnification on the print on the wall.

 

"He doesn't bother to point out that more will fit on the larger frame for a given magnification!"

Good thing he did not, it would be the silliest thing to point out. 

 

About that f-number. No one with any idea about what they are doing shoots with a certain f-number as goal on different formats. Simply because that f-number will give differently sized apertures, resulting in different DOF. A photographer only has two tools to shape the look of an image, FOV and DOF. For FOV he can change focal length, for DOF he can change aperture or the f-number. 

So, to get a certain image, one shoots with equivalent focal length and f-number.

 

Strange arguments against that article, to be frank. 

 

I always argue/advice that one does not need to go from APS-C to FF unless one needs the ability for less DOF than APS-C can provide with the lenses it has available. With the current lens line up for the Fuji, Pentax and Hasselblad MF trio the same is not true. They do not offer lenses which allow the possibility of more shallow DOF.

 

What remains:

  1. better dynamic range than the Canon 50mp FF sensor
  2. more light capture possible with equivalent focal length and f-number if exposure time does not have to be the same
  3. the possibility that 1 or more lenses render so attractively that they alone make a case for buying the camera, for some photographers

on the downside:

  1. no AA-filter available, so aliasing fake sharpness and false detail
  2. because the Fuji and Hasselblad are mirrorless and rely on the (big) sensor constantly, noise from heat will be higher and other heat issues might become apparent in use cases 


#13 obican

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 06:00 PM

Many months later, I got my hands on a GFX 50S. Will write a more detailed review of my impressions about the body, lenses and the whole system and I probably need another round of test and a few night's of sleep to reach a proper conclusion but here are some facts:

 

-Sensor is definitely impressive. I'm not sure how much better than a modern high resolution 35mm sensor but it certainly is an impressive sensor.

 

-While everyone can discuss the sensor metrics, lenses are simply stunning and not enough attention has been paid to that.

 

-Seriously, I haven't seen anything as impressive as these lenses that I've handled (32-64/4, 63/2.8, 110/2, 120/4 Macro). Incredibly sharp AND yet absolutely beautiful results at the same time. These two don't always go hand in hand, you know.

 

-I can't say the exact same thing about the build quality of the lenses.

 

-I still find Fuji's metering very unreliable, underexposing quite often.

 

-Double hinged rear LCD is a blessing. It would almost be a selling point in itself. I may go ahead and buy a X-T2 just because of this screen hinge.

 

-Hinged EVF is the best thing to happen to digital camera bodies after going completely mirrorless.

 

As I've said, I'll write a detailed review with sample photos that I took yesterday. 

 

Would I buy into the system if I had the money for it, given that the available focal lengths are good for what I shoot? Well, the answer isn't clear yet. But before yesterday, the answer was a definitely not. Today, I'm thinking about it. I may still conclude it's not worth it (yet) but I'm certainly impressed by what I saw.



#14 toni-a

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 09:45 PM

.

#15 toni-a

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 09:46 PM

For me a major shortcoming is the performance of the AF system, it's still an immature project, it's like getting Nikon D1 or canon EOS D30

#16 you2

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 10:57 PM

I think it depends on your usage. It seems that a lot of folks are using it for things like studio portrait or landscape where af is not as critical. I'm sure the '2' model will be better. I did once have a Mamiya 7 and loved the lenses in that system. This one seem to have wonderful lenses but alas I personally can't justify the cost. Still it would be nice if the v2 or v3 (version 2 or version 3) were vastly more affordable.If nothing else digital has made everything, but the cost of film, excessively expensive.



#17 obican

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 11:48 PM

AF is one of the main reasons why I want another round with the camera. It is not that bad but certainly not snappy as your 7Dm2, nor is the face detection as fluid as Sony's. Still, should be workable knowing its limitations. I had about 5 minutes before the shoot and spent most of it on setting up the camera. Halfway through the session, I switched back to the good old back-button-AF method. Next time I'll probably either open with that or I'll use the joystick and AF-C mode more often.

 

And yes, 50s v1 owners will be shafter when the v2 comes along with the much better AF. Just like Fuji X-Pro1, Sony Nex 7, Canon 5D Classic, nobody will really want them as soon as the next versions come along. Yes toni, I know you love your 5D but come on, 5Dm2 is better in every single way imaginable and it made the 5D worth peanuts.

 

I also still think the price point of the succeeding bodies will drop off a bit. A lot of the R&D costs are built into the v1 price and unlike other medium format makers, Fuji can share a lot of those costs with their much cheaper and mass produced APS-C line.

 

Just think about it,

 

-Fuji doesn't have to develop a new AF sensor, sub-mirror assembly and everything related to that. They have that built into the sensor.

-No extra metering sensor needed.

-No mirror mechanism.

-Viewfinder electronics are mostly the same as X-T2.

-Even the rear screen is the same as X-T2.

-Fuji has a ton of dealers everywhere so they can ship and sell the camera at more locations, more easily.

-Same goes for support infrastructure.

-Camera software and menus are pretty much the same as their smaller siblings.

-They manufacture their own lenses.

-Sensor is made by Sony and even those prices will go down because Sony has been selling a lot more of these 44x33mm sensors.

 

From now on, they can simply update the ergonomics slightly and wait for a new sensor by Sony and they're pretty much done. All the other stuff are already getting developed for the APS-C series cameras anyway. Even tiny yet important stuff such as WiFi App on mobile phones.

 

I'm honestly expecting a body with a similar sensor by Fuji at 4500$ price point in very few years.



#18 JoJu

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 12:40 AM

Just think about it,

 

So I did

 

-Fuji doesn't have to develop a new AF sensor, sub-mirror assembly and everything related to that. They have that built into the sensor.

 

And in the past they were able to make partly significant improvements by newer firmware.

 

-No extra metering sensor needed.
-No mirror mechanism.
-Viewfinder electronics are mostly the same as X-T2.
-Even the rear screen is the same as X-T2.

 

All true, but it's the rear screen I don't like for the highly limited movement in portrait mode.

 

-Fuji has a ton of dealers everywhere so they can ship and sell the camera at more locations, more easily.
-Same goes for support infrastructure.

 

Fuji Switzerland ships the repair cases to UK. Not exactly speedy or "repaired while you wait". That might be okayish for amateur cameras, professional need (at this price tag) better support, no?

 

-Camera software and menus are pretty much the same as their smaller siblings.

 

No, the GFX-50S had more menu topics and is different from the X-T2. It also lacks benches to save user settings to.

 

-They manufacture their own lenses.

 

And you were not amazed by build quality. I also felt the lenses felt cheap. The body as well, but it's a light weight one  and I wonder if that's what makes it feeling cheap to me?

 

-Sensor is made by Sony and even those prices will go down because Sony has been selling a lot more of these 44x33mm sensors.
 
From now on, they can simply update the ergonomics slightly and wait for a new sensor by Sony and they're pretty much done. All the other stuff are already getting developed for the APS-C series cameras anyway. Even tiny yet important stuff such as WiFi App on mobile phones.
 
I'm honestly expecting a body with a similar sensor by Fuji at 4500$ price point in very few years.

 

that app still sucks in many ways.

 

The moving EVF is a pretty cool thing, as well as the IQ, the rest just didn't feel solid enough to me. Dials have play, buttons are tiny and the aperture ring is moving too easy, A and C positions are not lockable, I think?



#19 toni-a

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 03:50 AM

If we put GFX in comparison to Nikon D850 what advantages does it hold ? 10% more resolution so what ? Image quality? D850 has everything to compete here, autofocus and speed ? Not a single chance for GFX
without mentioning lenses, service etc, as said big potential, immature system

#20 JoJu

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 09:09 AM

toni, talking about judging things you never had in hands nor made a single picture with it, doesn't do you or anybody else a favor.

 

As long as there's not sports, no very low light with AF challenges involved, the GFX might be a tad slower to AF, but it's AF points reach everywhere throughout the frame - and it is more precise with every lens.

 

Although I said I was surprised how well most lenses focused with D850, I still had to waste some time with the internal AF adjustment. For example the 300/4 OF E was -16, with converter +6. Things like that are just nothing to complain about on the GFX 50 and that's a big nothing!

 

The highly flexible EVF finder is a speciality you will never find in a DSLR, no matter how much money you could spend.

 

Choice of lenses: You who is so in love with a 17-55 that he dedicates several threads on that  ;) would not miss much. And for sports, action, birds, a smaller sensor is an advantage simply because of a longer tele reach. That was never the strong side of medium or large formats, so the GFX 50 doesn't shine in tele or ultrawide, but in studios it will. I don't expect to see these cameras in the wild more often than just rarely.

 

The D850 is so much heavier gear, more versatile, yet no advantage in size, that if one day Fuji comes out with a 4500.- body with some improved features and others staying the same, more buyers than today could do the jump towards bigger size sensors. Fuji's representatives always said they're making their lenses to be sufficient to double MP count. We'll see if they were successful if that happens.






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