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#21 Brightcolours

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 02:02 PM

I of course agree with you on that usually equivalent lenses are similar in size/weight. But with tele lenses a smaller image circle may enable smaller back elements, front elements remain more or less the same for the apparent aperture to remain the same.

However, if shallow DOF is not a want, and you just look for a vacation snap thing with a big FOV range and will use small apertures anyway, MFT offers lenses with smaller apertures and so will have the size advantage. This also applies to that Leica 100-400mm you brought up ;)

#22 mike

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 02:26 PM

You can even look at a Canon EOS M5 with 15-45mm and 55-200mm lens. The 15-45 appears to be better than the Sony 16-50mm in a number of areas, and the weight of the 55-200mm is considerably less than the Sony 55-210mm.
Of course, the Panasonic combo remains the most compact.

http://j.mp/2qo2T2N

 

It seems to me that Canon is putting in even a less half hearted approach to MILC than even Sony. I was not impressed with their offerings. To me, the M6 looked the most interesting. No viewfinder ruled it out completely.



#23 Brightcolours

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 02:41 PM

It seems to me that Canon is putting in even a less half hearted approach to MILC than even Sony. I was not impressed with their offerings. To me, the M6 looked the most interesting. No viewfinder ruled it out completely.

For the Sony you only look at two cheap zooms. Canon offers similar lenses, with the standard zoom being a bit better than Sony's.

The M5 is quite well liked by users, by the way. To me it makes no sense to say the M6 looks more interesting than the M5, as they are internally basically the same camera, only the M5 offers that EVF?

Have you handled any mirrorless cameras? Do that first. Try to find settings in menus, try controls and feel. And try how those EVF's look to you, I can't stand the screen flicker (I think I am more sensitive to than than most others), lag. It is more important for you to find the camera that is least annoying, or nicest to use, than a small difference in size or specs.

#24 mike

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 03:18 PM

For the Sony you only look at two cheap zooms. Canon offers similar lenses, with the standard zoom being a bit better than Sony's.

The M5 is quite well liked by users, by the way. To me it makes no sense to say the M6 looks more interesting than the M5, as they are internally basically the same camera, only the M5 offers that EVF?

Have you handled any mirrorless cameras? Do that first. Try to find settings in menus, try controls and feel. And try how those EVF's look to you, I can't stand the screen flicker (I think I am more sensitive to than than most others), lag. It is more important for you to find the camera that is least annoying, or nicest to use, than a small difference in size or specs.

 

Yes I have, and reading your comments it's pretty clear what I would value in an MILC is not your thing. I do have top level gear with very fast lenses. However, I really dislike just carrying them around with me, so I don't. I've lugged a 1ds with fast lenses around Asia, it wasn't really much fun. Which is why I had picked up a rebel and a 17-70 lens, which was stolen and put me on this quest. Someone else doesn't probably doesn't care and is fine carrying a brick with a bunch of fast lenses all day. I'm over it. Also, for most the street and vacation photography I do I generally prefer a deep DOF. In these situations I'm not doing portraits, and when I am I want to show the person in a setting, not isolated.



#25 Brightcolours

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 03:28 PM

Haha, talk about misreading my post! And in weird ways. I specifically have pointed out that shallow DOF is not the purpose of this thread and of the OP (you). So I seem to be well aware of what you are after.

What I am saying: Try out the actual cameras mentioned (such as the Sony A6300, the Penasonic, the Olympus, even the Canon EOS M5, or a Fuji that might fit the bill). See how they operate, how their menus are, how they feel and how their EVF is for you (not me). I also said "It is more important for you to find the camera that is least annoying, or nicest to use, than a small difference in size or specs."

I think that is pretty sound advice.

#26 mike

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 07:38 PM

Haha, talk about misreading my post! And in weird ways. I specifically have pointed out that shallow DOF is not the purpose of this thread and of the OP (you). So I seem to be well aware of what you are after.

What I am saying: Try out the actual cameras mentioned (such as the Sony A6300, the Penasonic, the Olympus, even the Canon EOS M5, or a Fuji that might fit the bill). See how they operate, how their menus are, how they feel and how their EVF is for you (not me). I also said "It is more important for you to find the camera that is least annoying, or nicest to use, than a small difference in size or specs."

I think that is pretty sound advice.

 

That is sound advice. Threads always seem to start growing like trees. Then sometimes the forest gets hidden by the trees.

 

Unfortunately the local camera store is a dead thing where I'm at. Some of the brick and mortar places will have a scattering of kits, but it's really bad. I did use my friends Fuji X-pro for an evening. The EVF worked pretty darn good. It is a little big for what I want. To the point it would be hard not to just pick up a T6I with an 18-135IS lens.

 

I also had an advanced P&S a few years back with an EVF too. It wasn't bad, and they've come a long way. Menus are something you get used too.

 

As of right now the Oly Pen F is high on my list.



#27 you2

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 10:52 PM

If this was the x-pro and not the x-pro-2 it has the worse evf of the fuji. I found it intolerable. The x-t1 and x-t2 have the best of the lot and the t10,t20 and x-e2 are all pretty good.



#28 Klaus

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 10:57 PM

Do yourself a favour and forget EOS M ... Canon is behind the rest of the gang.

To date EOS M is an afterthought for them at best. Conversely MFT/Fuji/Sony are deeply committed to mirrorless. 


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#29 Klaus

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Posted 02 May 2017 - 11:07 PM

If this was the x-pro and not the x-pro-2 it has the worse evf of the fuji. I found it intolerable. The x-t1 and x-t2 have the best of the lot and the t10,t20 and x-e2 are all pretty good.

 

Yes, the T10/T20 are awesome. Size-wise the 18-55mm f/2.8-4 is amazingly small for its speed/quality. The other zoom lenses are fairly big though. However, they have several smallish primes. 

 

Still - a Pen-F with Oly 12-100mm PRO or a GX85 plus Leica 12-60mm .... yummy.


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#30 mike

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 04:14 PM

 

Still - a Pen-F with Oly 12-100mm PRO or a GX85 plus Leica 12-60mm .... yummy.

 

These are the two I've looked closest at. I rather like the Pen-F :-)

 

One camera not mentioned is the Panny GX8. Any thoughts on this guy? There are some great kit deals available making this a very attractive item.



#31 Klaus

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 04:22 PM

These are the two I've looked closest at. I rather like the Pen-F :-)

 

One camera not mentioned is the Panny GX8. Any thoughts on this guy? There are some great kit deals available making this a very attractive item.

 

It's a comparatively big camera. Shutter vibrations come into mind (just like on the E-M1 mk I). However, you could use electronic shutter (except in artificial light where this can cause banding).


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#32 thxbb12

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 04:32 PM

These are the two I've looked closest at. I rather like the Pen-F :-)

 

One camera not mentioned is the Panny GX8. Any thoughts on this guy? There are some great kit deals available making this a very attractive item.

 

I find it way too big for the sensor size. Similar size to the X-Pro from Fuji.

 

The only downside to the GX7/80/85 series is their EVF. Why on earth does Panasonic use 16:9 EVFs in these?? Makes no sense at all since it's cropped to 4:3 and thus becomes much smaller than it should. Plus, it's a sequential EVF leading to tearing and rainbow effects. I almost think they do it on purpose to deter potential buyers and "force" them to get the more expensive GX8.


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#33 mike

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 06:40 PM

It's a comparatively big camera. Shutter vibrations come into mind (just like on the E-M1 mk I). However, you could use electronic shutter (except in artificial light where this can cause banding).

 

Apparently there's a software workaround that automatically goes to the electronic shutter at certain shutter speeds.

 

Indeed, it does seem comparatively big. The thing I'm wondering about is the size misleading? Two parts of the design come to mind. The first is the adjustable EVF. It definitely stick out the back a ways. Second is the grip, which would never protrude beyond the lens.

 

However, reviews compare it the x-pro is size which is worrisome. Have you personally got to hold it?



#34 mike

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 06:46 PM

I find it way too big for the sensor size. Similar size to the X-Pro from Fuji.

 

The only downside to the GX7/80/85 series is their EVF. Why on earth does Panasonic use 16:9 EVFs in these?? Makes no sense at all since it's cropped to 4:3 and thus becomes much smaller than it should. Plus, it's a sequential EVF leading to tearing and rainbow effects. I almost think they do it on purpose to deter potential buyers and "force" them to get the more expensive GX8.

 

Strange, the GX8 EVF got much better reviews than the pen-f. But that's only once comparison.

 

As I asked Klaus, have you had a chance to hold it? See the comments I left him in regards to its actual size. I too am worried because it was compared to the x-pro, Which did surprise me how big it is when I handled it.

 

This camera wasn't even on my radar until I clicked on it at B&H. Whats odd is you can by the camera alone for ~$1kUS, or you can by the kit with a 12-60, extra battery, and 32Gb card, and carrying bag (probably nothing I would use) for the same price.



#35 Klaus

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 11:36 PM

 

However, reviews compare it the x-pro is size which is worrisome. Have you personally got to hold it?

 

Me just fiddling around with it in a shop doesn't really count.

It all the depends on what you are using for  a comparison - it's tiny compared to an EOS 80D for instance. It's big compared to a Fuji X-T10/20.

 

I'm not sure about the substantial value-add of a GX8 compared to other MFT cameras other than the OLED viewfinder maybe.


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#36 JoJu

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 10:15 AM

In  my perception the Panasonics are biased and dedicated to great video recording - but I might be wrong.

 

As Fuji user I have to mention their UI is not convincing me fully. And with UI I also mean all these dials, which partly have nearly no function (front dial, pretty much useless) or are executed to get easily (dis)adjusted, others are difficult to switch properly (AF-dial).

 

I really would like to use an Oly for a week to compare their way of doing things. Olympus has much more experience with small bodies. But I don't know by just fiddling around with it, if they could keep their well thought ergonomics.






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