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So finally ... the Nikon D850


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#21 JoJu

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 09:30 AM

Even if there were adjectives to describe you and your typical comments, it would be useless to post them. Lack of insight. Everybody can see the obvious except you. As I said, you live in your own universe and are really good in bending facts so they could fit into it. Your blurb about dodging and burning speaks for itself and your poor attempts in lowering the efforts Nikon put into a new camera has "fanboy on crusade" level.

Nobody needs your "expertise" about Nikon.
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#22 Brightcolours

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 10:22 AM

You and your silly personal attacks. 



#23 toni-a

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 12:20 PM

And here we go again.....

 

BagarreAsterix.jpg


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#24 Claus

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 02:39 PM

Nobody needs your "expertise" about Nikon.


Very well said.

#25 Studor13

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 09:01 PM

I would get the D850 just to try out this film to digital converter.

Oh, and the silent shutter - finally!
From the sunny side of the Alps.

#26 Brightcolours

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 09:27 PM

I would get the D850 just to try out this film to digital converter.

Oh, and the silent shutter - finally!

That it "processes" colour negatives is pretty neat indeed!

 

According to DPReview, no  EFC shutter (again only in MUP mode), but with the redesigned shutter/mirror mechanism they think it might not be such an issue anymore



#27 JoJu

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 10:38 PM

I don't get that, Studor 13: silent shutter was already available on D810, but I guess you mean first curtain electronic shutter in LV?
Just discovered Nikon finally put focus stacking abilities in a DSLR. As a first, alright, but a bit half hearted: the stack will not be internally combined to one RAW, and they only made a scale from 1 to 10 and leave the test rows to all users:

How much steps are needed for a certain aperture on a given lens?
How do I get starting and ending point? It seems, I only can decide the starting point and face the result lateron.

Another half or quarter hearted thing is WiFi, but as it always was Nikon's weak point so far. To be fair, transferring up to 9 45 MP/s RAW by WiFi is a big challenge and I don't expect to get this in a camera inbuilt.

#28 mst

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 01:14 AM

I don't get that, Studor 13: silent shutter was already available on D810, but I guess you mean first curtain electronic shutter in LV?


That's still two different things: the D810 had a "Quiet" mode, where shutter and mirror were slowed down or delayed, resulting in less mechanical noise.

The D850's "Silent" mode completely relies on an electronic shutter, avoiding any mechanical movement. That means, the camera does indeed stay silent, but it also means the mode only works in LV mode.

Just discovered Nikon finally put focus stacking abilities in a DSLR. As a first, alright, but a bit half hearted: the stack will not be internally combined to one RAW, and they only made a scale from 1 to 10 and leave the test rows to all users:

How much steps are needed for a certain aperture on a given lens?
How do I get starting and ending point? It seems, I only can decide the starting point and face the result lateron.


I haven't read much about the stacking mode, yet, other than that you select the distance between shots from a scale of 1 to 10 (where 1 means the focal length of the lens divided by 30) and the number of shots to take. This might take some practice, depending on how they implemented it, still it is a very welcome feature especially for product shots (and macros of static subjects).

I don't mind that the camera doesn't combine the shots, just as with panos I prefer to have control and the option to correct small flaws, so rely on additional software (for both, panos and stacking) anyway.
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#29 JoJu

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 01:46 AM

Alright, now it became clearer to me, that silent shutter thing.

About that focus stacking: it's good that something is available "onboard". However, I remain at "half hearted implementation" becaus I know the difference of a well implememted process like Helicon focus provides and a so-so with this kind of abstract numbers like CamRanger's app has as well. The latter includes lots of guessing or long rows of test shooting. All I knks is it depends very much on lens and aperture, but also on blend mode algorithms. And I don't fancy the perspective of blending 30 or more 46 MP RAW shots... So, I'm still looking forward to Arsenal's approach.

So, for product shots I still prefer the external dedicated software with bigger Live View on acreen. It,s my simple mind which wants a focus stacking option like
Setting Aperture
Tapping on the screen to define closest distance
Tapping again to set farest distance
Camera calculates the necessary number of shots
Tapping "start"
Camera puts mirror up and start the focus row
Mirror down
Calculating the RAW
Done.

This could be done quite fast in 7 or 9 shots per second, like a Lytro doesn't need much time to create that focus field. Just with mind blowing details....

#30 Brightcolours

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 07:54 AM

With a focus stack series you will always have the focus breathing to deal with. Which means, there is no "calculating the RAW" step possible?



#31 JoJu

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 08:54 AM

There are difficulties I have to deal with in a focus stack. Focus breathing (with a need to refocus after changing FL or aperture or both) can't be one of them, as far as I understood the term. It happens, when

Focal length gets changed between two shots
Aperture gets changed between two shots (which is why that I can't use during a HDR series)

These things I don't do. Aperture remains untouched (but will change as f-number in close-up range) and I never tried to use a zoom for focusstacks.
In all stacks i need to eliminate differences in lighting, exposure and movement within the focal pane and from picture to picture. A leaf in the wind will cause massive problems, but the blurred shadow of that leaf on my main object would not be a problem or at least I could retouch it within the stack in PP.

However, the proportions of back- and foreground do change constantly, so any piece of software has to be able to scale the pictures in the stack. Nervous bokeh also causes problems in PP. High gloss surfaces show reflections which also can become a nightmare to deal with.

All very good reasons to ask for more control in PP. i"m very curious if and how Arsenal (*) will deal with it. They claim to be able to do the stacking of RAWs and sabe the result (and not the used single pictures) as RAW back to the card.

But my reasoning is: if Helicon focus does the trick in a mostly smooth set of images and CPU and buffer RAM of thenD850 are fast and big enough, I don't see problems too big to be solved for in-camera processing. Olympus and Pentax can do a resolution increase in camera by moving the sensor and calculating the 4 singke shots to a big one.

(*) there's a thread in the forum about that, but on an iPad it's a nightmare to need some extented functions, like smileys, formatting or hyperlinks

#32 Studor13

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 09:05 AM

I seriously doubt that Nikon is so stupid to introduce a focus stacking feature and at the same time leaving the shooter to have to deal with focus breathing.

The amount of "breathing" is noticeable going from infinity to MFD but no fool is going to stack a series of images like this.

Another example of fake news trying to shoot down (pardon the pun) the D850.
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#33 mst

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 09:30 AM

Focus breathing (read 'change of focal length') is a common 'feature' of most IF macro lenses near MFD. That definitely includes the AF-S 105 VR, which changes the FOV visibly when refocusing near 1:1.

However, most software solutions (like Helicon) can detect it and adjust the single frames accordingly.
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#34 Brightcolours

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 10:48 AM

Focus breathing is a common feature in all non-IF lenses also, courtesy of the distance from the focal point to the sensor. Focus breathing is not equivalent to "change of focal length". In order to eliminate focus breathing, one will have to change the focal length.

 

So, if you move the whole camera for focus stacking, you have an issue because the perspective (view point) changes. But you have no focus breathing. If you keep the camera at the same spot but you move the lens, you have a FOV change due to "focus breathing". In theory, one can design an IF lens which has no focus breathing at close up distances. But I do not know of any information of such macro lenses being available?

 

So yes, just shooting a bunch of images and combine them into RAW at the sensor resolution is not doable.

 

The focus breathing at close up distances is easily seen/checked through the view finder or on the LCD in live view, so do not treat it as something elusive. This tutorial video of the focus stacking features of Magic Lantern shows it clearly.

 

You will always need to align the images, and crop the result.



#35 Studor13

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 12:56 PM

 

You will always need to align the images, and crop the result.

 

Well, where did Nikon say that everything is done automatically for you?

 

 This feature lets the user automatically shoot up to 300 shots at adjustable focus step intervals to infinity which can be easily assembled into a focus-stacked image using third party software.”

 

It seems to me that some people are trying their best to find faults in the D850 even if they don't exist. 


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#36 Brightcolours

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 01:00 PM

Well, where did Nikon say that everything is done automatically for you?

 

 This feature lets the user automatically shoot up to 300 shots at adjustable focus step intervals to infinity which can be easily assembled into a focus-stacked image using third party software.”

 

It seems to me that some people are trying their best to find faults in the D850 even if they don't exist. 

It seems to me that you need to start reading the threads before misinterpreting and/or misrepresenting my posts.  ;)



#37 Studor13

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 01:25 PM

I read well. I am particularly good at reading between the lines.

This is what I know.

You can't cope with Nikon coming out with a killer camera and have to circumvent some non-sense about focus breathing.

Focus breathing this, focus breathing that.

Really, is that the only thing that you can come up with?

No, let me guess. Oh, that 4K video and crappy AF in Liveview bla bla bla.

The D850 hasn't even hit the stores but all the haters already know everything that is wrong with it. Right?
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#38 mst

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 01:42 PM

Can we stop these personal attacks, please?

The discussion was about why Nikon did NOT add automatic stacking in the D850, and BC made a very valid point about focus breathing.
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#39 Studor13

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 01:54 PM

Sure.

But if someone tells me I should start reading and then end it with some pissy wink then they are going to get it back with interest.

BTW, I don't agree with BC about focus breathing or anything else.

As to why Nikon didn't add auto stacking it's because it's better to first do it in LR and then in PS although I imagine it will be a feature in LR in the future.
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#40 JoJu

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 02:26 PM

Can we stop these personal attacks, please?The discussion was about why Nikon did NOT add automatic stacking in the D850, and BC made a very valid point about focus breathing.


Well, if someone who is not even remotely interested in buying this camera or any existing Nikon just want desperately find something which might go not as smooth as whoever thinks it should be, who endlessly blurbs around DR and which maximum DR is enough, never shows a picture to underline what he's complaining about, never shows some focus stacks of his own because otherwise he knew that software is around which does alingments and crops, acting like a berserk when it comes to criticise other opinions - then he occassionally gets back what he's asking for very loudly.

With a macro lens there's no need to be afraid of focus breathing by making a stack of pictures with a limited range of focus-distance. Occassionally, the buyers will have to face other issues given the history of lately announced or delivered cameras. Which is bad enough. No need to open up artificial fields of hypertheoretical problems.

Also, talking about ISO noise of a camera which currently hasn't made it to the shelves and is not available with it's final firmware is just talking about next week's weather before it happend. I'm not a fan of personal attacks, but I make exceptions if one constantly uses the same patterns of hypercriticism when it comes to other brands than his personal choice. The discussion about DR says a lot about that.
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