Nikon Z launched - Printable Version
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RE: Nikon Z launched - JJ_SO - 10-06-2018
Of course, martind86, for such an outstanding photographer like you with an everyday share of tigers running towards you, only the best of the best of the etc. cameras is just good enough. You might want to decide who you trust: Thom Hogan says "I don’t currently see any difference between the D850 and the Z7 that’s meaningful." (in terms of sensor behaviour.
You're just one of those guys demanding a lot but are only able to read "tests" and watch YouTube clips. Right now, I don't think the Z7 would limit your photography as you make a lot of words and try hard to appear as a very critical user. Seeing and trying is another story than quoting endlessly internet crap. Until I saw some of your work, I for myself doubt you're the one to judge a camera just by what's written about it. It could be a lot worse, trust me, and I went to the worse with Fujifilm. For a first throw it's very satisfying. I already could do a couple of things, the D850 was never able to deliver.
But stick with it... whish you tons of fun with calibrating new lenses.
RE: Nikon Z launched - Brightcolours - 10-07-2018
(10-05-2018, 09:46 AM)JJ_SO Wrote: Ihere are tons of occassios, when each available f-stop counts for a good result. Also, there's a zone in which noise becomes questionable. Wether the picture suffers of it or not. And the more f-stops are in between, the better. You were asking for examples of 14 stop ranges, well knowing there's not method to measure them in a RAW. It's not getting a better excuse the more you repeat the comfort of Canon shooters who have to live with blown highlights and noisy shadows. I guess one can arrange himself with a less big bandwidth of tones. But as there are enough alternatives, why limiting myself?You say there are tons of occasions where each available f-stop <sic> counts "for a good result".
What is the issue then of showing one or a few of those tons of occasions?
What there are tons of is camera gear collectors/users, not photographers, that write on the interweb about how 14+ stops at base ISO is a need, a requirement.
People who think blown highlights is something evil, who are afraid of shadows, and people who have no understanding about human vision and quote the silliest of things about human vision they could find on the interweb that suits their belief (yeah, the earth is flat too according to the interweb, and the moon landings a hoax). (Oh btw, JoJu, I don't mean you with the above people, just the general "below 14 stops of DR is bad" interweb dwellers). Oddly enough, the people who have no understanding of human vision have used human vision most of their lives too, but are too... dim? to make connections between what they actually see and what that means.
They do not think about why we use sunglasses, they do not think of a lot of things. Like, paper has a quite low DR, 6 stops or something like that is what we can print. Yet, when we print black, we perceive it as black. When we print nothing (white), we perceive it as white. If our vision would have "14 stops of DR", we would see black waaaay past that "paper black", and we would see white waaaay past that "paper white". We would see the paper-black as a darkish mid tone and the paper-white as a lighter mid tone-ish tone.
We actually see about 6.5 stops of DR at any one time. Our eye sight can adjust to light levels in two ways: chemical changes in the retina (slow adjustment) and change in pupil size (fast adjustment).
That is similar to changing the sensitivity ("ISO setting") and aperture change.
We all know from experience that when we go from a dark environment into daylight, our eyes "hurt/strain" for a while. This is because we need to chemically adjust still, and the pupil is trying to close more than is comfortable. Our eyes adjust all the time.
So, some people claim that they see the world in 14 EV of DR or even 20 EV of DR. They never try to see what they actually see. They never really (try to) notice that when they look at a darker part of the view that they kinda lose what is in the lighter part, and vice versa.
With the adjustment of our eyes, we can see what is in the shadows, when we focus on the shadows. And we can see what is in lighter parts, when we look at lighter parts. That is true, by adjustment we can see different parts of a big DR range. But that is by adjusting the white and black point, not by expanding the DR range we can "see".
If we actually stretch the DR range of an image to 14 stops, and view it however we like (tonal map the "new black" to "paper black" and the "new white" to paper white", or tonal map those to the brightest white and darkest black screen we can find), we will see an oddly contrastless, lifeless, "grey" unnatural scene, totally different from how we are used to see. When we look at images with a tonal curve of 6 to 8 stops of DR, we see a "natural" scene that does not look alien or unnatural to us, just varying somewhat in contrast.
We can adjust a lot, but adjusting to the extremes can take upto 30 minutes. We can temporarily blind someone with a flash of light, but we can also see in the same brightness of light as that flash after appropriate adjustment time.
Yes, I am sure that in some galleries you can find images where different DR ranges have been pushed together in a tonal map HDR fad craze, for impact and alien look. Tastes differ and what to some is art, to others is kitsch and in bad taste.
Yes, we can shoot in harsh, unattractive light, and claim that we need 14 stops of DR to not have any "blown highlights" and can "pull all that detail from the shadows". Really beautiful works of art, those will become. So for those who have a shadow pulling hobby, they can continue claiming the need for "better DR".
Real photographers won't mind upping the ISO (say 800, or 3200) when the situation calls for it, and not dismiss the results as "too little DR". Real photographers also don't mind contrast. They don't even mind working to get good light for their landscape images. Imagine that.
Sure, you can think of really odd or unfortunate situations where one camera is a better tool to use than other. But all the nonsense that gets written about DR is staggering.
On sharpness of the human eye... If you print something and only want to stare at the center, then yes, you don't need sharp corners. If you want to use that as counter argument against high DR regarding our vision, it is not really a fair one. If you look at a dark part of a print, you don't start to see it as a mid tone grey just by looking at it, nor does the white of the print become a mid tone.
The (central) sharpness perception of our vision also plays a role in what FOV in images we see as "natural". A horizontal frame shot with a 50mm lens looks pretty "natural" to us, depth perception and width wise. our eyes are actually fish eye ultra wide lenses, with a 2 eyes combined FOV or about 200 degrees. No one with a Samyang 10mm FF prime and a FOV of 122 degrees will seriously claim that images taken with such a lens look "natural" to us.
RE: Nikon Z launched - davidmanze - 10-07-2018
It's clear to see that this "discussion" will continue ad infinitum!
Actually, I boost the shadows because I'm scared of the dark ........you never know what's lurking in them!
So I'll stick with the lighter side of DR............
RE: Nikon Z launched - JJ_SO - 10-09-2018
It's rather easy. If in a discussion one thinks he doesn't have to see the obvious and instead constantly tries to convince others of his world view, it saves a lot of time and nerves to ignore this nonsense.
RE: Nikon Z launched - Brightcolours - 10-09-2018
(10-09-2018, 11:02 AM)JJ_SO Wrote: It's rather easy. If in a discussion one thinks he doesn't have to see the obvious and instead constantly tries to convince others of his world view, it saves a lot of time and nerves to ignore this nonsense.
Yeah, ignore the facts (paper has a ~6 EV DR, and yet black sort of looks like black and white sort of looks like white). Today, living in a facts free world is the in thing.
RE: Nikon Z launched - miro - 10-14-2018
(10-07-2018, 09:41 AM)Brightcolours Wrote: We actually see about 6.5 stops of DR at any one time. Our eye sight can adjust to light levels in two ways: chemical changes in the retina (slow adjustment) and change in pupil size (fast adjustment).I Brightcolour I know that you are also living in the Nederlands. This statement really scary me and I would like to ask you. Do you have driving licence?
I asking this questions exactly at the time of the year when the sun is low and all millions of cars are moving safely , but I'm scare that there is one guy near me who is driving a car with 6,5stops DR vision.
RE: Nikon Z launched - Brightcolours - 10-15-2018
(10-14-2018, 08:31 PM)miro Wrote:Miro, you are laughable.(10-07-2018, 09:41 AM)Brightcolours Wrote: We actually see about 6.5 stops of DR at any one time. Our eye sight can adjust to light levels in two ways: chemical changes in the retina (slow adjustment) and change in pupil size (fast adjustment).I Brightcolour I know that you are also living in the Nederlands. This statement really scary me and I would like to ask you. Do you have driving licence?
RE: Nikon Z launched - miro - 10-15-2018
Happily we (human) use our brain to process eye data and we see many details 300..600Mpixels and huge luminance range of 10e14, =100000000000000
RE: Nikon Z launched - Brightcolours - 10-15-2018
(10-15-2018, 08:18 AM)miro Wrote: Happily we (human) use our brain to process eye data and we see many details 300..600Mpixels and huge luminance range of 10e14, =100000000000000
Stop pretending you understand anything, miro. Leave discussion to the grown ups, perhaps?
From that wikipedia entry:
"The retina has a static contrast ratio of around 100:1 (about 6.5 f-stops). "
(it continues with: "As soon as the eye moves rapidly to acquire a target (saccades), it re-adjusts its exposure by adjusting the iris, which adjusts the size of the pupil. Initial dark adaptation takes place in approximately four seconds of profound, uninterrupted darkness; full adaptation through adjustments in retinal rod photoreceptors is 80% complete in thirty minutes.")
Stop embarrassing yourself?
RE: Nikon Z launched - JJ_SO - 10-15-2018
BC, your weird claims about eyesight and what you consider as enough DR is very tiring. A copy of an eyesight alone is not what photgraphy can do this days.
You can consider X f-stops as sufficient for your photography. But your photography is no scale to us who want more DR for good reasons. And it's not your business to decide what's wrong or right. As well as photography is a recording of a short moment of reality, an interpretation. I don't get why you continue stubborn donkey mode, just because some photographers want to show what's in the shadows or what's in the lights.
According to you, Ansel Adams should have stayed satisfied with the limited range of grey scales and don't make a fuss with a complicate development of the zone system. If you don't like or are not able to use tone-mapping, no problem, you don't have to. For me a bigger tone scale is one option - but no obligation to use it all the time, it's just rather handy to have it. And if someone throws a camera away, because it has only 13.3 instead of 13.5 stops DR, it still is not your problem - only rather stupid.