Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
7D > 70D?
#1
This is a genuine if not legitimate question.  I am but a Canon Rebel user since 2007.  My first was the Rebel XTi, my latest, the Rebel T1i.  They have both been very reliable, and I have been happy with them.  Of course, you eventually realize better cameras are out there, but that they are rediculously expensive.  Now that the 7D is such an old model, it can be found, brand new, body only, for less than the 70D.  I don't even have to wait to know that Canon will price the 7D mark II at a level that insures that a regular guy can't own one.  The question in my mind is whether the 70D's hybrid focus, and better screen going to make up for cheaper veiwfinder?  Ultimately, I doubt (without actually knowing) if the higher resolution of the 70D really equates to better image quality.  My evidence, owing to my limited experience with DSLR's is pretty much anecdotal, but I think the pixel desity beyond 18mp on an APS-C sized chip is pretty close to optimal.

 

 

With regard to the 70D

I don't know what Digic 5+ means.  Does it render better than Digic 5 as far as color and exposure are concerned?  Higher usable ISO?  Some other advantage?

 

Why does Canon have to push cheap viewfinders on everyone?  I don't know that the size difference between the 7D's 100% and 70D's 98% is a big deal, but I wear glasses.  That means my eye is further away already, so I am guessing that it is a big for me.  Even though I only have experience with Rebels, I have looked through the viewfinders of old film bodies that I have.  What a difference!  I can't believe my T1i viewfinder is made the way it is, when the old viewfinders were, subjectively speaking, 10x better.

 

WIFI- Does this mean I will be able to be tethered wirelessly and be able to to control the camera remotely with the computer's keyboard, and focus while viewing my computer's screen instead of the camera's while manually focusing?  All without a wired connection the the computer?  I read that live view is diabled while using WIFI.  If that is the case...What's the point?

 

The split sensor thing is relevant only to live view?  So autofocusing while using the (smaller) viewfinder is not better than the 7D?

 

 

With regard to the 7D

This was not really capable of unlimited HD recording when release (same as my T1i).  Instead, you could record only a few minutes at a time.  Considering the dual processors, it should have been easy.  I'm not sure if the firmware was updated to fix that.  I'm pretty sure a third party fixed it.  I'm not sure what the implications of updating with a third parties firmware is. 

 

 

Live view on the T1i

My only experience with live view is on the T1i and it is indespensible on the one hand, but leaves a lot of room for improvement.  When I focus manually the response time is so slow that you don't exactly feel live.  Does the 7D do any better?  Presuably the 70D does.  But maybe not.  It is possible that it has better autofocus, but slower rendering do to having a single processor which might mean that for manual focusing purposes the 7D has better live view.

 

If I seem biased toward the 7D it's only because being a Rebel user, I feel victimized by tactics like crippled software and all plastic all the time.  I'd love to have a "Professional" model.  Even if it is on the way out.  It least you know the 7D was designed to be the best they could make it at the time, rather than made only as good as necessary. 

 

Sorry if the points I raise seem a bit impressionistic.  If I migrate to either the 70D or the 7D I will know a lot more...but it will be after the decision has been made, not before!

 

-Arthur

 

#2
Quote:This is a genuine if not legitimate question.  I am but a Canon Rebel user since 2007.  My first was the Rebel XTi, my latest, the Rebel T1i.  They have both been very reliable, and I have been happy with them.  Of course, you eventually realize better cameras are out there, but that they are rediculously expensive.  Now that the 7D is such an old model, it can be found, brand new, body only, for less than the 70D.  I don't even have to wait to know that Canon will price the 7D mark II at a level that insures that a regular guy can't own one.  The question in my mind is whether the 70D's hybrid focus, and better screen going to make up for cheaper veiwfinder?  Ultimately, I doubt (without actually knowing) if the higher resolution of the 70D really equates to better image quality.  My evidence, owing to my limited experience with DSLR's is pretty much anecdotal, but I think the pixel desity beyond 18mp on an APS-C sized chip is pretty close to optimal.
 The hybrid AF works in live view. You won't use it when using the PD AF. The view finder is not cheaper, both use a penta prism. It is just more accurately assembled in the 7D.

Quote:With regard to the 70D

I don't know what Digic 5+ means.  Does it render better than Digic 5 as far as color and exposure are concerned?  Higher usable ISO?  Some other advantage?
In JPEG shooting it means faster processing and better noise reduction capability. When shooting RAW you won't notice much of the version of processor used.

Quote:Why does Canon have to push cheap viewfinders on everyone?  I don't know that the size difference between the 7D's 100% and 70D's 98% is a big deal, but I wear glasses.  That means my eye is further away already, so I am guessing that it is a big for me.  Even though I only have experience with Rebels, I have looked through the viewfinders of old film bodies that I have.  What a difference!  I can't believe my T1i viewfinder is made the way it is, when the old viewfinders were, subjectively speaking, 10x better.
The view finder of the 70D is not cheap. The "rebel" line has a penta mirror view finder implementation, to save money and weight. The 70D and 7D both use a penta prism. The eye point (are they published?) is relevant to glasses wearers, the 100% vs. 98% are of not interest. Of course, the view finder from an APS-C camera is smaller than that of a FF camera.

Quote:WIFI- Does this mean I will be able to be tethered wirelessly and be able to to control the camera remotely with the computer's keyboard, and focus while viewing my computer's screen instead of the camera's while manually focusing?  All without a wired connection the the computer?  I read that live view is diabled while using WIFI.  If that is the case...What's the point?
I don't know what is the advantage of using WiFi over USB when shooting via the computer with EOS utility. Maybe one wants to drain the camera battery?

The real advantage is that one can use an iOS or Android device (like your smartphone) for remote live view, with the EOS Remote app.

Quote:The split sensor thing is relevant only to live view?  So autofocusing while using the (smaller) viewfinder is not better than the 7D?
The PD AF os the 70D is pretty good (to say the least). It probably is better than that of the 7D, which has some performance quirks according to some owners.

 

Quote:With regard to the 7D

This was not really capable of unlimited HD recording when release (same as my T1i).  Instead, you could record only a few minutes at a time.  Considering the dual processors, it should have been easy.  I'm not sure if the firmware was updated to fix that.  I'm pretty sure a third party fixed it.  I'm not sure what the implications of updating with a third parties firmware is.
The 7D can record 12 minutes of HD video at one take. Why would you need longer takes? It has to do with import tax laws on video cameras and file size of the file system, more than on heat production of the sensor.

 

Quote:Live view on the T1i

My only experience with live view is on the T1i and it is indespensible on the one hand, but leaves a lot of room for improvement.  When I focus manually the response time is so slow that you don't exactly feel live.  Does the 7D do any better?  Presuably the 70D does.  But maybe not.  It is possible that it has better autofocus, but slower rendering do to having a single processor which might mean that for manual focusing purposes the 7D has better live view.
I have the 450D/XSi, which predates the 500D/T1i. I have NEVER noticed slow live view rate. It does not matter if one uses manual focussing, no focussing, or live view contrast detect AF, the frame rate does not change (and is pretty good).

 

Quote:If I seem biased toward the 7D it's only because being a Rebel user, I feel victimized by tactics like crippled software and all plastic all the time.  I'd love to have a "Professional" model.  Even if it is on the way out.  It least you know the 7D was designed to be the best they could make it at the time, rather than made only as good as necessary. 

 

Sorry if the points I raise seem a bit impressionistic.  If I migrate to either the 70D or the 7D I will know a lot more...but it will be after the decision has been made, not before!

 

-Arthur
The 70D is the better camera. The 7D is bigger and metal bodied. The 7D mk II will be more expensive.

#3
Hi Arthur, if you prefer high quality OVF most of the crop cameras wont do it for you, and if you can get your hand on 7d and 70d then make your decission. In this tear all of the cameras look good on paper and provide more features than we need. In general newer generation cameras provide better IQ. There always be additional features such as wifi, back back check list with bar code scanner, FB app, order-pizza-in-the-middle-of-nowhere app... it never ends.

#4
Quote: 

I have the 450D/XSi, which predates the 500D/T1i.
 

Ah, then we are in the same boat.  I appreciate your loyalty to your camera.  I like mine too!  I don't hate Rebels at all.  There are just a few things I don't like about them, but they are big.  I can't stand the pentamirror viewfinder.  If I were describing the reasons for its use I would say because it's cheaper, and because it's cheaper.  The Rebel viewfinder is comparatively small and dark.  Considering the central importance of the viewfinder I don't see how this can be considered a good place to cut costs.  This may be nit picking, but on both my Rebel XTi, and Rebel T1i the little soft plastic lining on the viewfinder fell off and got lost.  If you don't replace them quickly, the hard plastic underneath will scratch your glasses (if you wear them) so let this be a warning to be careful about that. 

 

I'm not sure what eye point is.  I'm going to assume both the 7D and 70D will have decent viewfinders.

 

"I don't know what is the advantage of using WiFi over USB when shooting via the computer with EOS utility. Maybe one wants to drain the camera battery?"

 

Good one!  What I had envisioned was being able to put my camera closer to my bird feeder, for instance.  Hopefully, they don't worry about my camera sitting there and I, sitting inside drinking my coffee, can see the birds, refocus as needed and shoot.  Probably I am not the rugged outdoor photographer that some people are.  When I saw there was no live view while WIFI was on, I was understandable disappointed.  No, I don't want to drain my battery.  I don't even use WIFI on my printer.  I'm only going to complicate something if there is something to be gained.  That said, I will remotely shoot those birds...someday...

 

"The real advantage is that one can use an iOS or Android device (like your smartphone) for remote live view, with the EOS Remote app."

 

I'm the last person alive who doesn't have a smart phone.

 

"The 7D can record 12 minutes of HD video at one take. Why would you need longer takes?"

 

I sense you are a not big on video.  Well neither am I, actually.  But sometimes it can be useful.  I wanted to find out how my dog was getting out of the yard, but I could only record a few minutes at a time.  I did finally succeed, but it took a lot more work.  I did not know about the tax thing.  I just know that my cheap point and shoot can do unlimited recording, but with an inferior lens, and resolution.  I don't like being forced to use a much worse camera to do what my best camera should be capable of doing.

 

"I have the 450D/XSi, which predates the 500D/T1i. I have NEVER noticed slow live view rate. It does not matter if one uses manual focussing, no focussing, or live view contrast detect AF, the frame rate does not change (and is pretty good)."

 

Maybe I am saying it wrong.  Or maybe it's just me.  The "not good" view I mean would be what happens when you view at 5x or especially 10x.  The feed back you get as you manually focus is not always in synch.  It could be refresh rate, or it could be some lag caused by the need to create new images to represent different views as the focus changes.  All I can say is the process is very accurate, but it is not fast.  There's a lag.  I'm not sure which camera is more capable here. 

 

"The 70D is the better camera. The 7D is bigger and metal bodied."

 

Brightcolours:  You may well be right.  Bigger and metal bodied are good points, though.  I appreciate your comments, especially coming from a fellow rebel user.  I don't think I will get a 3rd rebel when the time comes, but they can do 90% of what the other models can do, and for a lot less money. 

 

I'm going to read the other responses, but I can't answer them at the moment...
#5
Quote:Hi Arthur, if you prefer high quality OVF most of the crop cameras wont do it for you, and if you can get your hand on 7d and 70d then make your decission. In this tear all of the cameras look good on paper and provide more features than we need. In general newer generation cameras provide better IQ. There always be additional features such as wifi, back back check list with bar code scanner, FB app, order-pizza-in-the-middle-of-nowhere app... it never ends.
 

Boris-

 

What you say makes sense, except for one thing.  I'd probably have to have the cameras for a few days before I knew which one I liked better.  In general, I think we consumers have been suckered into thinking viewfinders are incidental to focusing because we can just relegate the job to AF.  All I can say is my present camera's AF can't handle a lot of situations.  I'd rather have good AF and MF capability. 

 

I don't really want new features.  Just features I miss.  I've tried various ways to get better manual focus, from using a Canon S Magnifier viewer, to using a larger monitor to focus, and review shots with.  I haven't really come up with anything convenient.  That's why I want better built in viewfinders and screens, and better and quicker live view rendering.  But I have a feeling I won't get to find out how much progress has been made until after I buy a specific model.

 

Newer is better.  Bigger is better.  Faster is better.  If the potentials are lived up to.  Thanks for the input.  I think I have two votes for the 70D and none for the 7D, though that is just my impression.
#6
I upgraded to a 6D, not APS-C. Reason: more shallow DOF possibilities. Otherwise I would have liked the 70D. 

 

AF seems fine, MF is fine too (using an Eg-S focussing screen, especially to judge MF with large apertures). Yes, I will use the WiFi remote live view when needed. If I had no iPhone/smartphone, I would buy a cheap Android device with WiFi or an iPod Touch, just for that functionality.

 

Indeed, I am not big on video.

#7
A little update with some specification of different viewers:

 

<p class="">Brightcolours: Thanks for pointing out the significance of eyepoint!

<p class=""> 

<p class="">I wanted to add that I like the FOV with the cropped sensor. At least Canon is putting pretty good viewers on the prosumer versions of there APS-C sensor offerings. There are pros and cons to this format, and it is a lower cost format, but choosing it does not mean that I don’t want a competent viewfinder. I came across the following quote while looking up “Eyepoint” and it says something I believe, and puts it better than I could.

<p class=""> 

<p class="">“The viewfinder is the single most important user interface on any camera. Throughout the history of cameras, the method of aiming the camera accurately and communicating its view to the operator is what has determined and defined most different basic camera types.

<p class=""> 

<p class="">Yet the viewfinder is perhaps the single most fudged and botched aspect of today's 35mm SLRs...”

<p class="">  -Mike Johnston,

<p class="">  Luminous Landscape

<p class=""> 

<p class="">I went on to read the article, and I have to say, I came away thinking that I knew less. Which is probably a good thing. But here are the metrics for the cameras discussed. The 70D is looking better, and better. Meanwhile I have another camera on indefinite loan, so I don’t have to go through camera withdrawals while I try to allocate new funds for a new camera. I guess I will see what the 20D specs are and add them (for a historical perspective on an early prosumer grade APS-C offering).

<p class=""> 

<p class=""> 

<p class="">7D Viewfinder

<p class="">Pentaprism

<p class="">100% frame coverage

<p class="">Approx. 1.0x maginification

<p class="">Eyepoint: 22 mm

<p class=""> 

<p class="">70D Viewfinder

<p class="">Pentaprism

<p class="">98% Coverage

<p class="">0.95x magnification

<p class="">Eyepoint: 22mm

<p class=""> 

<p class="">T1i Viewfinder

<p class="">Pentamirror

<p class="">98% coverage

<p class="">0.87x magnification

<p class="">Eyepoint: 19mm

<p class=""> 

<p class="">20D Viewfinder

<p class=""> Pentaprism

<p class="">• 95% frame coverage

<p class="">• Magnification: 0.9x

<p class="">• Eyepoint: 20 mm

  


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread:
1 Guest(s)