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An R7 with APS-C sensor to be released?
#21
(07-30-2021, 07:04 AM)Arthur Macmillan Wrote: Dave, you've hit the nail on the head!  Some birders are getting excited by the R5 (I've started to loose interest).  The file size is huge!  Most of the serious birders that I bump into use the Nikon D500, or the EOS 7D Mk II.  The have have the best all around balance of build quality, AF speed, range, and reach. 

I saw Wim's comment about the best bird photo quality he's ever seen.  And it doesn't really surprise me.  The "animal eye" auto focus and tracking are valuable features.  Hard to compete with, for sure.  For instance, if I could justify spending $2,500 so I could shoot birds closer than 20' away, I might do it. 

I got my first look through the R5 with the 100-500mm lens.  To me it was both interesting and anti-climactic.  It was a professional surfing photographer's camera, and he was really, really happy with it.  He had a 1DX Mark III for back-up.  When I see him again I will have some follow questions because later when I thought about it, doubts began to creep in.

I won't try to describe this as though I were a camera reviewer with extensive knowledge, but an obvious question to me was why didn't he get rid of the 1 DX Mk III as his back-up camera and buy the R6, which seems to me to have just as much ability as a camera sitting on the bench would need.  Ah, there I got a chance to see the look on his face that many of you would have had.  The 1 DX Mk III is in a class by itself, I was told!  I was told he could toss it into the ocean, go out and retrieve it, and it would still be as good as new.  Possibly, an exaggeration, but looking down at the scrawny looking R5, I know I wasn't reassured.  Then he said there was a problem that all (most? many? some?) mirrorless cameras in even fairly moderately backlit situations.

On the other hand he mentioned he had sold the two EF zooms that one would normally have.  He seemed to hedge a little on the 100-500 versus the 100-400 Mk. II.

I talked about birds and how the R6 was not enough for me, and he understood right away, even finishing my sentence for me.  What I needed was an APS-C sized sensor in the RF mount.

Yes!  It is so obvious when you shoot wildlife, and telephoto!  I think Canon has been a bit bold, and tried to set itself apart with the RF series.  But there is a big difference between a professional shooter who can live with 45, 50, 63MP sensors, and talk about maybe new 85 and 100 MP sensors coming out, and the actual photography enthusiasts who pay the bills.  The longest lens in the Canon EOS EM mount is the 55-200mm zoom. 

I'd love to see the the figures for how many EF 100-400mm lenses have been sold by Canon over they years.  There is no way to know how many of those lenses went on APS-C sensor cameras, but let's not kid ourselves.  If canon expects to sell many 100-500 lenses I don't think it is going to be to people buying the R5.  There just is never going to be enough of them! 

If they don't put an APS-C sensor in the RF mount I will either continue using he EF lens on crop sensor bodies, or just switch to another camera maker when it comes time to replace my 90D.

-Mac


P.S. - Dave, I just think there is a slow down in birding in the summer. Spring and fall migrations were variously killed by Covid fears and Covid fearless crowds.  I am still trying to adjust to new human migration patterns.  Sometimes on the weekends places are too crowded with out of towners.  I may have to revert to macro photography until things start feeling more normal.

Hi Mac,
    You need a very fast expensive ML camera to match the D500/7DII in terms of auto-focus and general usage ..... the R5 delivers that complete with eye AF which works ......... as does the Sony A1 ........ and they better it, but at a price ...... and then the new lenses ....... and so on .........
 .......   of course the frame rate is double/triple the D500 which has it's pluses and minuses ....... (I guess) the files are around 50-60 Mbs per image and 20 of those per second requires fast computers and huge storage .... that's not how I want to operate  ..... coming home with 1,000 images of maybe just a hand full of birds and having to throw 95% away ....... in the end how many images of the same bird do you need  when you already have hundreds?
  Cropping is a reality in birding unless you live somewhere where the birds are tame and large like Florida ....... much as I'd love to, I don't live there ...... FF probably reigns in that region ....... for the rest of us the APSc sensor is an instant  affordable blessing ........... 
  
 ......... I still see ML as a waiting game, the later you jump on the train the better the seat you will get ....... Nikon certainly won't let the success of the D500 go unnoticed and will produce a DX ML version ....... 

  So stay with your 90D Mac and bathe in the glory of that OVF ....... with it's reach advantage ....... affordability ....... and multiple lens options ......... 
 .......... when the right ML camera eventually arrives complete with lenses we will know about it ........ 

...... the best is still yet to come!!

  I come across from time to time while shooting, folk from birding associations who do "le comptage" ..... "bird counting" ....... all are finding a low bird count this year across the board ..... most put it down to world climatic conditions ..... 

  All the best
Dave's clichés
#22
Dunno if that changed with newer models, once they lock on a subject mirrorless camera autofocus is deadly fast and precise, however the system must first find the subject and lock on it, for sports indoors or car races it's an easy task however for wildlife and birding dunno if mirrorless can lock on a subject as fast as a pro DSLR
#23
(07-30-2021, 08:07 PM)toni-a Wrote: Dunno if that changed with newer models, once they lock on a subject mirrorless camera autofocus is deadly fast and precise, however the system must first find the subject and lock on it, for sports indoors or car races it's an easy task however for wildlife and birding dunno if mirrorless can lock on a subject as fast as a pro DSLR
You're joking, right?

As I mentioned a little further back, just look at the R5 image thread on POTN to see how good this camera is at birding ...
Gear: Canon EOS R with 3 primes and 2 zooms, 4 EF-R adapters, Canon EOS 5 (analog), 9 Canon EF primes, a lone Canon EF zoom, 2 extenders, 2 converters, tubes; Olympus OM-D 1 Mk II & Pen F with 12 primes, 6 zooms, and 3 Metabones EF-MFT adapters ....
#24
(07-31-2021, 09:17 PM)wim Wrote:
(07-30-2021, 08:07 PM)toni-a Wrote: Dunno if that changed with newer models, once they lock on a subject mirrorless camera autofocus is deadly fast and precise, however the system must  first find the subject and lock on it, for sports indoors or car races it's an easy task however for wildlife and birding dunno if mirrorless can lock on a subject as  fast as a pro DSLR
You're joking, right?

As I mentioned a little further back, just look at the R5 image thread on POTN to see how good this camera is at birding ...

   I think Toni is referring to some ML quirks........ the R5 does extremely well but it does have a couple of shortcomings ......... one is with focusing on small birds against a distant background ....... if it doesn't get the bird straightaway and the focus falls on the background, the bird becomes so OOF that the contrast detect can't even recognize it as a subject and it stops focusing ....... 

 DSLRs in general don't suffer from that because they use coincidence range-finding  ........ 

   Wim,
 .........   do you think the great images are just because of the R5 ? ........ and not the photographer and the available subject matter?? ........ that's no reflection on the R5 btw ...... the R5 is a great camera ......

....... so I'll copy/paste BC's format of clever mantras:

" people have been photographing birds with FF format for decades" ........ without cropping........ apparently ...... (really?) ....... Smile

replace "cropping" with "eye detect"  
 
 how about? ........ people have been photographing birds with the FF cameras even before the before the R5's eye detect era ........
 
  great though the camera is, it is neither the start of bird photography nor the end of the era of cropping ....... 
Dave's clichés
#25
(08-01-2021, 07:55 AM)davidmanze Wrote:
(07-31-2021, 09:17 PM)wim Wrote:
(07-30-2021, 08:07 PM)toni-a Wrote: Dunno if that changed with newer models, once they lock on a subject mirrorless camera autofocus is deadly fast and precise, however the system must  first find the subject and lock on it, for sports indoors or car races it's an easy task however for wildlife and birding dunno if mirrorless can lock on a subject as  fast as a pro DSLR
You're joking, right?

As I mentioned a little further back, just look at the R5 image thread on POTN to see how good this camera is at birding ...

   I think Toni is referring to some ML quirks........ the R5 does extremely well but it does have a couple of shortcomings ......... one is with focusing on small birds against a distant background ....... if it doesn't get the bird straightaway and the focus falls on the background, the bird becomes so OOF that the contrast detect can't even recognize it as a subject and it stops focusing ....... 

 DSLRs in general don't suffer from that because they use coincidence range-finding  ........ 

   Wim,
 .........   do you think the great images are just because of the R5 ? ........ and not the photographer and the available subject matter?? ........ that's no reflection on the R5 btw ...... the R5 is a great camera ......

....... so I'll copy/paste BC's format of clever mantras:

" people have been photographing birds with FF format for decades" ........ without cropping........ apparently ...... (really?) ....... Smile

replace "cropping" with "eye detect"  
 
 how about? ........ people have been photographing birds with the FF cameras even before the before the R5's eye detect era ........
 
  great though the camera is, it is neither the start of bird photography nor the end of the era of cropping ....... 
What are you talking about here, Dave? The R5 relies on phase detect AF, with dual pixel "pixels" all over the sensor. So, contrast detect??? The R5 does PD AF, just like the DSLRs you mention.

https://www.techradar.com/news/24-hours-...is-verdict
Basically, all you wrote was apparently about a different camera from a different manufacturer, perhaps? Except that eye detect stuff, of course?  Big Grin
#26
I acn't find it now but, it was a two person one year later utube user review comparison between the 5D MkIV and the Canon R5 /R6 by Jan Wegener ......... they were both huge fans of the Canon R5/R6 were discussing the few issues they had both found with the cameras .......

 ..... both found the problem of small birds against a distant background ...... and not the first time I've seen this ..... in general though it was praise all the way .....

  As to PDCD  AF it seems that although it uses PD and should be able to detect distance information ........ somehow in this situation it fails to see the bird at all .... and needs MF prompting ..........


 ........ if i come across the video I'll post it !!
Dave's clichés
#27
(08-01-2021, 09:10 AM)davidmanze Wrote: I acn't find it now but, it was a two person one year later utube user review comparison between the 5D MkIV and the Canon R5 /R6 by Jan Wegener ......... they were both huge fans of the Canon R5/R6 were discussing the few issues they had both found with the cameras .......

 ..... both found the problem of small birds against a distant background ...... and not the first time I've seen this ..... in general though it was praise all the way .....

  As to PDCD  AF it seems that although it uses PD and should be able to detect distance information ........ somehow in this situation it fails to see the bird at all .... and needs MF prompting ..........


 ........ if i come across the video I'll post it !!
ok Smile
#28
(08-01-2021, 09:10 AM)davidmanze Wrote: I acn't find it now but, it was a two person one year later utube user review comparison between the 5D MkIV and the Canon R5 /R6 by Jan Wegener ......... they were both huge fans of the Canon R5/R6 were discussing the few issues they had both found with the cameras .......

 ..... both found the problem of small birds against a distant background ...... and not the first time I've seen this ..... in general though it was praise all the way .....

  As to PDCD  AF it seems that although it uses PD and should be able to detect distance information ........ somehow in this situation it fails to see the bird at all .... and needs MF prompting ..........


 ........ if i come across the video I'll post it !!
Yeah, well, a bird's eye tends to be small, and if it is far away, it becomes difficult, for any camera system. However, the camera does pick up the bird itself as well, effectively like no other camera out there.

As to your other reply: of course it depends a lot on the photographer. Having said that, I have been following a bunch of photographers who do birding on POTN over the years, and they are all convinced the R5 helps them a lot.

Actually, looking at the images, most of them have well improved their game as a result, even though they were top notch already.

Specifically, check out member 'robamy' in the R5 image thread over on POTN.
https://photography-on-the.net/forum/sho...p=19266844

Kind regards, Wim
Gear: Canon EOS R with 3 primes and 2 zooms, 4 EF-R adapters, Canon EOS 5 (analog), 9 Canon EF primes, a lone Canon EF zoom, 2 extenders, 2 converters, tubes; Olympus OM-D 1 Mk II & Pen F with 12 primes, 6 zooms, and 3 Metabones EF-MFT adapters ....
#29
(08-01-2021, 10:35 AM)Brightcolours Wrote:
(08-01-2021, 09:10 AM)davidmanze Wrote: I acn't find it now but, it was a two person one year later utube user review comparison between the 5D MkIV and the Canon R5 /R6 by Jan Wegener ......... they were both huge fans of the Canon R5/R6 were discussing the few issues they had both found with the cameras .......

 ..... both found the problem of small birds against a distant background ...... and not the first time I've seen this ..... in general though it was praise all the way .....

  As to PDCD  AF it seems that although it uses PD and should be able to detect distance information ........ somehow in this situation it fails to see the bird at all .... and needs MF prompting ..........


 ........ if i come across the video I'll post it !!
ok Smile

 I found this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L06kMSYnFO4

 I think this is the second person in the Jan Wegener video where he talks about the same thing with the R5 .........
Dave's clichés
#30
(08-01-2021, 03:37 PM)wim Wrote: Yeah, well, a bird's eye tends to be small, and if it is far away, it becomes difficult, for any camera system. However, the camera does pick up the bird itself as well, effectively like no other camera out there.

As to your other reply: of course it depends a lot on the photographer. Having said that, I have been following a bunch of photographers who do birding on POTN over the years, and they are all convinced the R5 helps them a lot.

Actually, looking at the images, most of them have well improved their game as a result, even though they were top notch already.

Specifically, check out member 'robamy' in the R5 image thread over on POTN.
https://photography-on-the.net/forum/sho...p=19266844

Kind regards, Wim

Some very good and detailed images for sure !! .........  especially like the oyster-catcher .....  he's clearly a good bird photographer first and foremost ....... hence the good low POVs ....... and he knows where to find them and to get close  .......... maybe a lot of shooting from his 4X4?.... hides etc. ......... of course great lenses ...... 600mm F4  ........ 400mm F? ....... and of course the R5 does great !!

   ....... but that wasn't the point of Macs thread ....... it is about crop vs FF ....
 .... he is looking to fill the frame with the birds as often as possible .... which is a common problem ..... he has the 90D already ........ a great high resolution crop sensor!
        
.... to me this is thread is not about which is the best camera ....... it's about what suits the users needs best ...... affordably ! 
 ..... I think Mac has already realized FF is not going help him     ...... hence the conversation about a crop sensor ML sports camera ...... 

 ....... until then most birders will be shooting crop sensor DSLRs ...... for that reach!
Dave's clichés
  


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