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Taking the other perspective, looking through those shots too, I counted around 15 which I'd say were heavily biased towards a crop sensor body, and none where a FF were essential. I didn't realise the page was endless for a while, so I think to saw around 50 or so before that point. In a lot of those cases, a focal length of 400mm or longer were used.
On aperture and pixel level diffraction limiting, just remember not every pixel needs to be perfect all the time. DoF will often be a bigger enemy than diffraction, and I regularly use f/8-11. You're going to have to be a seriously obsessive pixel peeper to see the difference in diffraciton between that and f/5.6 say. Also don't forget in the real world, the diffraction limit isn't fixed anyway, and varies with the frequency of light. Calculators assume a mid value around green, but red would already be limited at that point and blue can go on for a while longer yet.
<a class="bbc_url" href="http://snowporing.deviantart.com/">dA</a> Canon 7D2, 7D, 5D2, 600D, 450D, 300D IR modified, 1D, EF-S 10-18, 15-85, EF 35/2, 85/1.8, 135/2, 70-300L, 100-400L, MP-E65, Zeiss 2/50, Sigma 150 macro, 120-300/2.8, Samyang 8mm fisheye, Olympus E-P1, Panasonic 20/1.7, Sony HX9V, Fuji X100.
genotypewriter
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[quote name='popo' timestamp='1290414721' post='4324']
Taking the other perspective, looking through those shots too, I counted around 15 which I'd say were heavily biased towards a crop sensor body, and none where a FF were essential.
[/quote]
A good observation but would he be better off with one more crop body or a FF? <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='  ' />
[quote name='popo' timestamp='1290414721' post='4324']
DoF will often be a bigger enemy than diffraction, and I regularly use f/8-11.
[/quote]
Yes, it often becomes a trade off between more DOF and overall softness until you get lens movements involved.
[quote name='popo' timestamp='1290414721' post='4324']
You're going to have to be a seriously obsessive pixel peeper to see the difference in diffraciton between that and f/5.6 say.
[/quote]
Well the OP is going from a 50D to a 7D for a 9% increase in linear resolution... and he has mentioned that he needs that extra resolution. So the chances are he's going to compare them side by side at high magnifications, at least at the start.
[quote name='popo' timestamp='1290414721' post='4324']
Also don't forget in the real world, the diffraction limit isn't fixed anyway, and varies with the frequency of light. Calculators assume a mid value around green, but red would already be limited at that point and blue can go on for a while longer yet.
[/quote]
An excellent point to note, but still... it just gets worse because of the higher pixel density.
For the record, I'm not against high pixel density sensors... in fact, I like them. It's just that higher pixel density sensors are a double-edged sword. There's a limit to how much of extra resolution you can get just from the sensor alone. Other things like the lenses and the sensor size play a massive role in obtaining detail and sometimes even more so than pixel density alone.
GTW
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I need to stop writing things 1st thing in the morning (my time). I often don't think it through fully enough. Good point on balancing yet another crop body vs something new in FF. I did play about with that experimentally and while the 7D isn't a huge jump from 50D, I have no regrets doing it. I didn't feel the same when I traded the 50D to a 5D1, although it wasn't the fault of the sensor size, and I probably would have kept a 5D2... never easy is it?
<a class="bbc_url" href="http://snowporing.deviantart.com/">dA</a> Canon 7D2, 7D, 5D2, 600D, 450D, 300D IR modified, 1D, EF-S 10-18, 15-85, EF 35/2, 85/1.8, 135/2, 70-300L, 100-400L, MP-E65, Zeiss 2/50, Sigma 150 macro, 120-300/2.8, Samyang 8mm fisheye, Olympus E-P1, Panasonic 20/1.7, Sony HX9V, Fuji X100.
genotypewriter
Unregistered
[quote name='popo' timestamp='1290471291' post='4345']
never easy is it?
[/quote]
Never <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' />
Quite a debate going on here :-)
Just to clarify a few things:
1) I mentioned wanting a higher resolution sensor, this was meaning over the 1DII sensor.
2) I am replacing both my 50D and 1DII with the 7D so my only choice for this camera was a crop sensor as most of my shots are focal length limited (maybe not my most popular however it would seem!)
3) I will be adding a FF camera to my arsenal very soon as I do like the advantages it offers, I cant decide whether to settle for a 5D or whether I want to shell out and go for the 5DII. My main reason would be the interface on the camera and the LCD screen - the original 5D was horrible for those but I just don't think they are worth £1000 to me (yes its higher resolution, and does movies, has higher ISO etc. but I wouldn't take advantage of those too much).
Anyway, thanks for the interesting debate guys, its been fun reading. As it stands both the 7D and my new boy came last Wednesday so my only test subject so far has been family shots. However so far I am very impressed with the 7D and I cant wait to try out the advanced AF soon :-)
Cheers
Allan
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Allan, sounds like you're going through things I've considered too, even if not answered.
If you do decide on getting the older 5D1, I notice mpbphotographic have a few listed at the moment at £500 described as "pro used condition"... might alter the balance a bit compared to the typical £700+ used models.
Thankfully lens lust is keeping the FF desire at bay here. Some day I will get a stuper-telephoto, but that's for another thread...
<a class="bbc_url" href="http://snowporing.deviantart.com/">dA</a> Canon 7D2, 7D, 5D2, 600D, 450D, 300D IR modified, 1D, EF-S 10-18, 15-85, EF 35/2, 85/1.8, 135/2, 70-300L, 100-400L, MP-E65, Zeiss 2/50, Sigma 150 macro, 120-300/2.8, Samyang 8mm fisheye, Olympus E-P1, Panasonic 20/1.7, Sony HX9V, Fuji X100.
Dear Allan,
Congratulations with the birth of your son. I hope as is well with him and your wife.
I wish you all the best as a family!
Best wishes,
Reinier
[quote name='allanmb' timestamp='1290511508' post='4355']
Quite a debate going on here :-)
Just to clarify a few things:
1) I mentioned wanting a higher resolution sensor, this was meaning over the 1DII sensor.
2) I am replacing both my 50D and 1DII with the 7D so my only choice for this camera was a crop sensor as most of my shots are focal length limited (maybe not my most popular however it would seem!)
3) I will be adding a FF camera to my arsenal very soon as I do like the advantages it offers, I cant decide whether to settle for a 5D or whether I want to shell out and go for the 5DII. My main reason would be the interface on the camera and the LCD screen - the original 5D was horrible for those but I just don't think they are worth £1000 to me (yes its higher resolution, and does movies, has higher ISO etc. but I wouldn't take advantage of those too much).
Anyway, thanks for the interesting debate guys, its been fun reading. As it stands both the 7D and my new boy came last Wednesday so my only test subject so far has been family shots. However so far I am very impressed with the 7D and I cant wait to try out the advanced AF soon :-)
Cheers
Allan
[/quote]
I'm sure you will find the advanced AF & snappiness very useful in just 4 or 5 months <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' />
My experience is that my good old E-P1 can't even cope with a four legged 6 months old baby.
Congrats for the baby boy,
Sylvain
[quote name='allanmb' timestamp='1290511508' post='4355']
Quite a debate going on here :-)
Just to clarify a few things:
1) I mentioned wanting a higher resolution sensor, this was meaning over the 1DII sensor.
2) I am replacing both my 50D and 1DII with the 7D so my only choice for this camera was a crop sensor as most of my shots are focal length limited (maybe not my most popular however it would seem!)
3) I will be adding a FF camera to my arsenal very soon as I do like the advantages it offers, I cant decide whether to settle for a 5D or whether I want to shell out and go for the 5DII. My main reason would be the interface on the camera and the LCD screen - the original 5D was horrible for those but I just don't think they are worth £1000 to me (yes its higher resolution, and does movies, has higher ISO etc. but I wouldn't take advantage of those too much).
Anyway, thanks for the interesting debate guys, its been fun reading. As it stands both the 7D and my new boy came last Wednesday so my only test subject so far has been family shots. However so far I am very impressed with the 7D and I cant wait to try out the advanced AF soon :-)
Cheers
Allan
[/quote]
genotypewriter
Unregistered
[quote name='allanmb' timestamp='1290511508' post='4355']
My main reason would be the interface on the camera and the LCD screen - the original 5D was horrible for those but I just don't think they are worth £1000 to me (yes its higher resolution, and does movies, has higher ISO etc. but I wouldn't take advantage of those too much).
[/quote]
If I were you, my main concern would be the mirror boxes in the old 5Ds which I've heard some say fall off after they're used a bit.
Also, if the higher resolution, higher ISOs or the movies don't matter to you, I'm not sure why you'd want to go full frame in the first place. There is ofcourse shallower DOF but you can never have ISOs too high (or noise too low) <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' />
Btw, congratulations on your new arrivals <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='  ' />
GTW
Hell GTW,
Mine mirror came off last December. And even though I bought my 5D second hand, the repair was still free, because it is a common problem amongst the 5D's. So, don't worry about it.
Although when you are out in the field with your camera, it can be frustrating when the mirror comes off and you just spotted Big Foot or Nessie(Loch Ness Monster). But then again, camera's always tend to fail operation when you meet them anyway <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blink:' /> .
Best wishes,
Reinier
[quote name='genotypewriter' timestamp='1290922043' post='4507']
If I were you, my main concern would be the mirror boxes in the old 5Ds which I've heard some say fall off after they're used a bit.
Also, if the higher resolution, higher ISOs or the movies don't matter to you, I'm not sure why you'd want to go full frame in the first place. There is ofcourse shallower DOF but you can never have ISOs too high (or noise too low) <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' />
Btw, congratulations on your new arrivals <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=' ' />
GTW
[/quote]
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