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7D or 5D Mark II
#1
Ok I am kind of desperate. I know I should know what to buy but its just not easy. HEre is the deal: I am a travel photographer 60% of my pics are in good light (iso 100-400) 35 % are in medium low light and 5% are in very low light (Iso 1600). I cannot take a tripod to the places I travel. This means that sometimes I have to photograph highly detailed landscapes in low light at high iso (800-1600), which leads to noise problems with my 50D. Therefore i want to upgrade since I dont get those pics accepted by my agency.



I also love shallow depth of field for portraits. I take many portraits.



Sometimes I take semi-macros which need more depth of field but stopping down is not an option due to low light.



Sometimes good Servo AF comes in handy, but most of my shots are low paced or stationary subjects.

I definately need good build and best weather sealing avaliable in a SMALL DSLR (reads: 1D is not an option, no never, far to big and heavy.) I understand that the 7d is slightly better than the 5D here.



I submit to agencies and art galleries for prints up to 24x 36 inches (alamy and seenby).

Some of my photos can be seen here: http://www.photography-in-style.



I have lenses to support both a 7d and a 5D mark II. Pre-existing lenses are not a deciding factor. I cant buy both cameras at this point of time. (lenses are 20-35, 28/1.8, 50 1.8, 85 1.8, 70-200 L IS USM, 10-22)
#2
I had 50D and 7D, and the 7D does have a bit better high ISO of the two as it doesn't give banding in shadow regions you can find on 50D. I'm not sure I would say it is that significant though. While I have not tried it, the 5D2 should give more benefit if high ISO and detail are your requirement, as well as the potential of shallower DoF.



On the weather sealing, I never pushed the 50D to the limit but it coped fine in light rain and snow as well as the 7D does.
<a class="bbc_url" href="http://snowporing.deviantart.com/">dA</a> Canon 7D2, 7D, 5D2, 600D, 450D, 300D IR modified, 1D, EF-S 10-18, 15-85, EF 35/2, 85/1.8, 135/2, 70-300L, 100-400L, MP-E65, Zeiss 2/50, Sigma 150 macro, 120-300/2.8, Samyang 8mm fisheye, Olympus E-P1, Panasonic 20/1.7, Sony HX9V, Fuji X100.
#3
[quote name='jenbenn' date='20 July 2010 - 09:04 PM' timestamp='1279652692' post='1171']

Ok I am kind of desperate. I know I should know what to buy but its just not easy. HEre is the deal: I am a [color="#800080"]travel photographer [/color][color="#800080"]60% of my pics are in good light (iso 100-400) 35 % are in medium low light [/color]and [color="#0000ff"]5% are in very low light (Iso 1600)[/color]. I [color="#800080"]cannot take a tripod[/color] to the places I travel. This means that sometimes I have to photograph highly [color="#0000ff"]detailed landscapes in low light at high iso (800-1600)[/color], which leads to noise problems with my 50D. Therefore i want to upgrade since I dont get those pics accepted by my agency.



I also love[color="#0000ff"] shallow depth of field for portraits[/color]. I take [color="#0000ff"]many portraits[/color].



Sometimes I take[color="#0000ff"] [/color][color="#800080"]semi-macros which need more depth of field but stopping down is not an option due to low light[/color].



[color="#006400"]Sometimes good Servo AF [/color]comes in handy, but most of my shots are [color="#0000ff"]low paced or stationary subjects[/color].

I definately need [color="#800080"]good build[/color] and [color="#006400"]best weather sealing avaliable in a SMALL DSLR [/color](reads: 1D is not an option, no never, far to big and heavy.) I understand that the 7d is slightly better than the 5D here.



I submit to agencies and art galleries for [color="#800080"]prints up to 24x 36 inches [/color](alamy and seenby).

Some of my photos can be seen here: http://www.photography-in-style.



I have lenses to support both a 7d and a 5D mark II. Pre-existing lenses are not a deciding factor. I cant buy both cameras at this point of time. (lenses are [color="#0000ff"]20-35, 28/1.8, 50 1.8[/color], [color="#800080"]85 1.8, 70-200 L IS USM[/color], [color="#008000"]10-22[/color])

[/quote]

Ok, I tried to highlight your main points.

[color="#800080"]In purple[/color]: both cameras equally good

[color="#008000"]In green[/color]: 7D better

[color="#0000ff"]In blue[/color]: 5D Mark II better



So now for more specifics:



[color="#800080"]travel photographer[color="#000000"] - you want quality and (relatively) light, so both 5D II and 7D will do you fine

[/color]

[/color][color="#800080"]60% of my pics are in good light (iso 100-400) 35 % are in medium low light[color="#000000"] - again, both cameras do fine here, maybe with slight advantage to the 5D II

[/color]

[/color][color="#0000ff"]5% are in very low light (Iso 1600)[color="#000000"] - 5D II fo rsure; I shoot without hesitation at 1600 and 3200 iso with this camera, and have them printed at 24"X 36", with a little PP

[/color]

[/color][color="#800080"]cannot take a tripod[color="#000000"] - high iso: 5D II, or as alternative, IS lenses

[/color]

[/color][color="#0000ff"]detailed landscapes in low light at high iso (800-1600)[color="#000000"] - 5D II without a doubt; I shoot macro at 1600, 3200 and 6400 iso, and retain a lot of detail up to and including 3200 iso; 6400 iso you need to go small Raws

[/color]

[/color][color="#0000ff"]shallow depth of field for portraits[/color] - [color="#0000ff"]many portraits [/color][color="#000000"]- 5D II as FF cameras have an advantage with regard to shallow DoF, of almost 1 2/3 stop

[/color]

[color="#800080"]semi-macros which need more depth of field but stopping down is not an option due to low light[color="#000000"] - 5D II has a high iso advantage, 7D has a DoF advantage in thsi regard; my personal take is that I prefer the high iso performance as to me a sharper image with better tonal rangeat limited DoF is better than one with more DoF but more noise, especially in the darker parts of the image

[/color]

[/color][color="#0000ff"][color="#006400"]Sometimes good Servo AF [/color][color="#000000"]- if thsi is important to you, you will need the 7D. I shot a water skiing event with the 5D II, and that was very hard, as the iA Servo couldn't always keep up on the 100-400L follwing the water skier. I've had much better luck with gliders, however.

[/color]

[color="#0000ff"][/color]low paced or stationary subjects[/color][color="#000000"] - the extra pop of the 5D II FF sensor gives it an advantage[/color]



[color="#800080"]good build[/color][color="#000000"] - moot point iMO. Both have a good build, with maybe a slight edge to the 7D, due to [color="#000000"]the[/color] next item

[/color]

[color="#006400"]best weather sealing avaliable in a SMALL DSLR[color="#000000"] - 7D, obviously. Depending on th econditions, if a simple solution like a plastic bag and a few elastic bands will do, the 5D II wil do just fine. I actually use an Optech weather sleeve, which is a slightly more elegant solution than a plastic sandwich bag and a few elastic bands, and it does quite nicely in fairly steady pouring rain that way

[/color]

[/color][color="#800080"]prints up to 24x 36 inches[color="#000000"] - that is photographer dependent, not camera dependent. Teh 5D II makes it slightly easier on the PP, but other than thatit is much of a muchness I would think. I have made 24"X 36"prints of images from a 350D, 400D, and 40D, and they look very good indeed. Do the 5D II ones look better? Yes, on very close inspection, and because the images from a FF body just somehow look that bit extra better.

[/color]

[/color][color="#0000ff"]20-35, 28/1.8, 50 1.8[color="#000000"] - The 5D II will likely give you the edge here, as its pxiel density is less demanding than that of the 7D

[/color]

[/color][color="#800080"]85 1.8, 70-200 L IS USM[color="#000000"] - equally good on either camera

[/color]

[/color][color="#008000"]10-22[/color] - only works on the 7D of course, not th e5D II. However, if goign for th e5D II, I'd suggest you replace the 20-35 and the 10-22 with the 17-40L. The 17-40L actually performs a little better on FF than the 10-22 on APS-C, and they are each others equivalent, more or less, on those systems. Less CA and PF, slightly better sharpness.



The main advantages of the 7D are the weather sealing, AF system, crop factor if you need that, and FPS.

The main advantages of the 5D II are the FF sensor, more creative DoF possibilities, high iso performance, better IQ.



So add up your points, give them a weighting as to what you find most important, and that should give you a result of which you may be happy for the years to come <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' />.



HTH, kind regards, Wim
Gear: Canon EOS R with 3 primes and 2 zooms, 4 EF-R adapters, Canon EOS 5 (analog), 9 Canon EF primes, a lone Canon EF zoom, 2 extenders, 2 converters, tubes; Olympus OM-D 1 Mk II & Pen F with 12 primes, 6 zooms, and 3 Metabones EF-MFT adapters ....
#4
I'm just curious, why can't you take a tripod with you?
#5
Many thanks wim, that did help. Two more questions. With low paced subjects I mean people walking by on the streets,fishermen in rowing boats etc. Will the Af Servo of 5d be sufficient for that?



For weather seling I dont usually need to shoot in pouring rain, but definately in very dusty, or humid environments (desert, rainforest) and sometimes in a light drizzle. Will the 5d be up for that?



And yes, if I go full frame I will definately sell the 10-22 and replace the 20-35 with 17-40 in the long rund.

Thanks



[quote name='wim' date='20 July 2010 - 10:20 PM' timestamp='1279660803' post='1175']

Ok, I tried to highlight your main points.

[color="#800080"]In purple[/color]: both cameras equally good

[color="#008000"]In green[/color]: 7D better

[color="#0000ff"]In blue[/color]: 5D Mark II better



So now for more specifics:



[color="#800080"]travel photographer[color="#000000"] - you want quality and (relatively) light, so both 5D II and 7D will do you fine

[/color]

[/color][color="#800080"]60% of my pics are in good light (iso 100-400) 35 % are in medium low light[color="#000000"] - again, both cameras do fine here, maybe with slight advantage to the 5D II

[/color]

[/color][color="#0000ff"]5% are in very low light (Iso 1600)[color="#000000"] - 5D II fo rsure; I shoot without hesitation at 1600 and 3200 iso with this camera, and have them printed at 24"X 36", with a little PP

[/color]

[/color][color="#800080"]cannot take a tripod[color="#000000"] - high iso: 5D II, or as alternative, IS lenses

[/color]

[/color][color="#0000ff"]detailed landscapes in low light at high iso (800-1600)[color="#000000"] - 5D II without a doubt; I shoot macro at 1600, 3200 and 6400 iso, and retain a lot of detail up to and including 3200 iso; 6400 iso you need to go small Raws

[/color]

[/color][color="#0000ff"]shallow depth of field for portraits[/color] - [color="#0000ff"]many portraits [/color][color="#000000"]- 5D II as FF cameras have an advantage with regard to shallow DoF, of almost 1 2/3 stop

[/color]

[color="#800080"]semi-macros which need more depth of field but stopping down is not an option due to low light[color="#000000"] - 5D II has a high iso advantage, 7D has a DoF advantage in thsi regard; my personal take is that I prefer the high iso performance as to me a sharper image with better tonal rangeat limited DoF is better than one with more DoF but more noise, especially in the darker parts of the image

[/color]

[/color][color="#0000ff"][color="#006400"]Sometimes good Servo AF [/color][color="#000000"]- if thsi is important to you, you will need the 7D. I shot a water skiing event with the 5D II, and that was very hard, as the iA Servo couldn't always keep up on the 100-400L follwing the water skier. I've had much better luck with gliders, however.

[/color]

[color="#0000ff"][/color]low paced or stationary subjects[/color][color="#000000"] - the extra pop of the 5D II FF sensor gives it an advantage[/color]



[color="#800080"]good build[/color][color="#000000"] - moot point iMO. Both have a good build, with maybe a slight edge to the 7D, due to [color="#000000"]the[/color] next item

[/color]

[color="#006400"]best weather sealing avaliable in a SMALL DSLR[color="#000000"] - 7D, obviously. Depending on th econditions, if a simple solution like a plastic bag and a few elastic bands will do, the 5D II wil do just fine. I actually use an Optech weather sleeve, which is a slightly more elegant solution than a plastic sandwich bag and a few elastic bands, and it does quite nicely in fairly steady pouring rain that way

[/color]

[/color][color="#800080"]prints up to 24x 36 inches[color="#000000"] - that is photographer dependent, not camera dependent. Teh 5D II makes it slightly easier on the PP, but other than thatit is much of a muchness I would think. I have made 24"X 36"prints of images from a 350D, 400D, and 40D, and they look very good indeed. Do the 5D II ones look better? Yes, on very close inspection, and because the images from a FF body just somehow look that bit extra better.

[/color]

[/color][color="#0000ff"]20-35, 28/1.8, 50 1.8[color="#000000"] - The 5D II will likely give you the edge here, as its pxiel density is less demanding than that of the 7D

[/color]

[/color][color="#800080"]85 1.8, 70-200 L IS USM[color="#000000"] - equally good on either camera

[/color]

[/color][color="#008000"]10-22[/color] - only works on the 7D of course, not th e5D II. However, if goign for th e5D II, I'd suggest you replace the 20-35 and the 10-22 with the 17-40L. The 17-40L actually performs a little better on FF than the 10-22 on APS-C, and they are each others equivalent, more or less, on those systems. Less CA and PF, slightly better sharpness.



The main advantages of the 7D are the weather sealing, AF system, crop factor if you need that, and FPS.

The main advantages of the 5D II are the FF sensor, more creative DoF possibilities, high iso performance, better IQ.



So add up your points, give them a weighting as to what you find most important, and that should give you a result of which you may be happy for the years to come <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' />.



HTH, kind regards, Wim

[/quote]
#6
I am shooting reportage style; mostly people. Landscapes only as they pop up on the go. Meaning I leave the hotel for shooting, say a market or a a factory or whatever, and on the way to my location I come by a lovely landscape in stunning light. For that one landscape shot, I cant burden myself with a tripod which will get into my way the whole day when shooting in cramped environments. In addition lugging around a tripod the whole day in SE Asian monsoon weather is no fun at all, not only because of weight but because your are so easy recognizable as a photographer.



[quote name='Alexander ' date='20 July 2010 - 11:36 PM' timestamp='1279665419' post='1176']

I'm just curious, why can't you take a tripod with you?

[/quote]
#7
[quote name='jenbenn' date='21 July 2010 - 09:01 AM' timestamp='1279695690' post='1181']

Many thanks wim, that did help. [/quote]

The pleasure is mine <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' />.

Quote:Two more questions. With low paced subjects I mean people walking by on the streets,fishermen in rowing boats etc. Will the Af Servo of 5d be sufficient for that?

Easily. Actually, for those types of subjects I don't bother with Ai Servo myself. I find I can easily keep up with normal One-shot AF.



What I find hard is this type of shot:

[Image: jump03b.jpg]



This was towards dusk, with 5D II and 100-400L at 400 mm, F/5.6, 3200 iso, 1/320s. IOW, really pushing the envelope, including the 5D II Ai Servo capabilities. Of course, these guys do come at you at speeds anywhere between 30 and 60 mph, depending on whether they are building up speed for the jump and angle of attack <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' />. And I do want to do frame filling shots, which also makes it harder - this is the entire frame, no cropping <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' />.

Quote:For weather seling I dont usually need to shoot in pouring rain, but definately in very dusty, or humid environments (desert, rainforest) and sometimes in a light drizzle. Will the 5d be up for that?

In very dusty environments you always have to be careful, with any camera, so change lenses in a big plastic bag, etc., to avoid dust enterign th ecamera as much as possible, and always have your favourite set of dust removal equipment with you for use in a bathroom in your hotel i fand when it si required - although I find the 5D II is not really prone to collecting dust on the sensor. Humid environments it should be ok, you just have to be careful with condensation, and let the camera + lens adjust to the temperature difference going from a cool place to a warmer place, but again that is true for any camera, including analog cameras <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' />.



With regards to drizzle, I would just protect the camera with a rain sleeve or plastic bag with elastic bands. And the lens with a (good quality) filter. But then I would do that for any camera anyway.Including my 1D Mark III (which I got after the water skiing event, for sport shots liek th eabove, essentially <img src='http://forum.photozone.de/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='Big Grin' />). Better safe than sorry.

Quote:And yes, if I go full frame I will definately sell the 10-22 and replace the 20-35 with 17-40 in the long run.

Thanks

I'd really do advise that in the case you do decide on a 5D II, to replace those immediately. A 10-22 plus 20-35 should easily pay for a 17-40L and the 17-40L is quite a bit better than the 20-35, is also better than a 10-22 + APS-C body combo, and can be protected against the weather too by adding a filter.



Kind regards, Wim
Gear: Canon EOS R with 3 primes and 2 zooms, 4 EF-R adapters, Canon EOS 5 (analog), 9 Canon EF primes, a lone Canon EF zoom, 2 extenders, 2 converters, tubes; Olympus OM-D 1 Mk II & Pen F with 12 primes, 6 zooms, and 3 Metabones EF-MFT adapters ....
#8
If 40% of your pictures are above iso 400, you shoot weddings and make 24X36 enlargements, go for the 5d (mark I or II). I have both and use the 5d (mark II) if there's a chance of diminished lighting.
#9
Thanks Wim. Decision made. The tough part is now finding a 5D M II in GErmany. Every bloody shop (including online ones) are out of stock. With the exception of the overpriced ones, of course. Called Canon Germany. They dont know of any availability problem. For them the retailers just forget to order. Ridiculous. In one of the largest stores here in Berlin I was told that they have been waiting for shipment for three months.
#10
[quote name='jenbenn' timestamp='1280647284' post='1438']

Thanks Wim. Decision made. The tough part is now finding a 5D M II in GErmany. Every bloody shop (including online ones) are out of stock. With the exception of the overpriced ones, of course. Called Canon Germany. They dont know of any availability problem. For them the retailers just forget to order. Ridiculous. In one of the largest stores here in Berlin I was told that they have been waiting for shipment for three months.

[/quote]



Jenbenn, I don't recommend you get your camera from the high-street retailers in Germany. Mediamarkt, Saturn and Medimax all fix the prices and and you'll end up paying 200-300 euros more than you should. On top of that, the staff know as much about cameras as I do about the mating habits of the Indonesian tree kangaroo.



You could try Calumet in West Berlin - they at least know what they are talking about and the service is pretty good. I got my 5D MKII from an online shop called Wex Cameras (in Schwerin, I think) and I was very happy with the price and the service.
  


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