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Canon RF and APS-C/EF-M
#1
The big question with the RF mount was, if there were ever APS-C bodies coming.
Canon's stance is there are two mounts, RF (full frame) and EF-M (APS-C), the latter for small consumer oriented products. However, the EF-M line remains limited.
The new 600mm and 800mm lenses, while specialist, are really inexpensive (and light), and suited
for the enthusiast masses  (birders etc.). In theory they could go well with EF-M.
But I doubt that Canon will release them for EF-M. It looks like EF-M will remain a consumer segment with a smallish lens selection, with the usual kit zooms and a few primes.

I guess a reasonable compact RF body with high pixel density could be made, so that no APS-C specific
body is called for. However, there is the cost issue, APS-C is cheaper, and compact EF-S 10-18 and EF-S 18-55 like Kit lenses could only be made with a smaller image circle. The current 24-105 is quite light, but lacks the UWA.
Currently it doesn't look like a APS-C like body will be forthcoming. Birders have to stick the 600/800 mm lenses on a high megapixel FF body.

In the very long run though, Canon probably will have to abandon EF-M, simply because the RF communication protocol can do so much more.  So, will there ever be an RF-S line, or is that also being eaten by the smartphones. These 600 and 800 lenses are quite unexpected, and suggest the Canon is gearing the RF line now also towards lower budgets, but probably stays exclusively FF, at least for the foreseeable future?
Thoughts?
#2
I don't think that EOS M will be here for much longer.
You can't even use RF lenses on EOS M so there's no logical upgrade path. And the EF mount is on life support.

Releasing an APS-C RF mount body would make more sense. They'd just need to offer 3 dedicated zoom lenses and all the rest could be sourced from FF options.
The big question is whether this is economical. The EOS RP kit with the 24-105mm f/4-7.1 is already fairly affordable so ....
Chief Editor - opticallimits.com

Doing all things Canon, MFT, Sony and Fuji
#3
EOS-M is the best selling mirrorless camera system, obviously it is staying on the short term at least
#4
Releasing an APS-C RF-mount camera makes no sense: you would lose the small size of the cameras and lenses. And I expect the production cost would be increased as well: after all, the Nikon Z50 isn't cheap, and it's not where an APS-C entry-level camera should be. Canon does need to support that mount more, but we have to remember that most users that would buy a M50 or M6 will not buy more than a lens or two past the kit zoom, if even that. They already have all the lenses an entry-level camera system really needs, especially since Sigma supports the mount.

EOS-M is here to stay, unlike the Nikon Z-mount APS-C cameras.
#5
(07-12-2020, 04:28 PM)toni-a Wrote: EOS-M is the best selling mirrorless camera system, obviously it is staying on the short term at least

Where is your reference showing the GLOBAL market share of EOS M?

If EOS M is so successful - why doesn't Canon release more gear? The last lens was released in 2018. And it's hardly a complete lens lineup. We are talking about 7 lenses and 4 of them are cheap kit lenses.

It is really a pity actually because it had potential.
Chief Editor - opticallimits.com

Doing all things Canon, MFT, Sony and Fuji
#6
EOS R lens line build up happened. The basics are covered (FF equivalent 35mm and 50mm, UWA zoom, standard zoom and tele zoom, macro, and the EF/EF-S catalog, so they apparently don't feel a pressure to concentrate on this segment right now, as the big lens buyers mostly go FF.
#7
(07-12-2020, 10:20 PM)Klaus Wrote: Where is your reference showing the GLOBAL market share of EOS M?

I read it here in the forum somewhere
BTW the forum search engine is a poor performer (and I never liked this forum software that kept me away from here for years)
#8
Worldwide/north American/European market share data does not get published for free online often, so data is very scarce.
#9
(07-12-2020, 10:05 PM)Spinifex Wrote: Releasing an APS-C RF-mount camera makes no sense: you would lose the small size of the cameras and lenses. And I expect the production cost would be increased as well: after all, the Nikon Z50 isn't cheap, and it's not where an APS-C entry-level camera should be. Canon does need to support that mount more, but we have to remember that most users that would buy a M50 or M6 will not buy more than a lens or two past the kit zoom, if even that. They already have all the lenses an entry-level camera system really needs, especially since Sigma supports the mount.

EOS-M is here to stay, unlike the Nikon Z-mount APS-C cameras.

Well, I suspect that is the same reasoning Canon is using, i.e APS-C only on EOS-M. But the 600 and 800 mm are clearly aimed at low budget customers. Yet, the lenses were not released for EOS-M. As someone mentioned on the other thread on these lenses, they would be useful on APS-C size for maximum reach.
As to why APS-C RF could make sense:
A) Price point. Presently you can get a APS-C type camera for less than 1000$, including even a kit lens. And you get 24 Mp. To have the same pixel density on a FF you would need a 60 Mp sensor. The best you can get at present is 45 MP (R5) for 3900$. There is still a big price difference APS-C versus FF, especially when looking at pixel density. All the arguments say that this price difference will never go away.
b)   Size. The R bodies can be made quite compact and lightweight. So that is not an issue. But so far we have not seen any lightweight compact UWA lenses. For such lenses, the projected image circle has a big effect on lens size/weight. For tele lenses, the image circle makes not much difference, since the front element determines size/weight of the lens. So, I think it will be difficult to design compact 10-18, 18-55 equivalent lenses for FF.
An APS-C R body, would solve both problems. 


On an EF APC-S body, I can mount the small EF-S lenses, but I can put on also a 100-400 EF, or a Samyang fish-eye. I don't need to carry two systems like with RF and EOS-M.
Yes, of course I can use the old EF, EF-S lenses with both RF and EOS-M with adapter. But if I invest in a new system, I would like to make sure I can get the lenses I want eventually.
At present neither offers me what I want. The RF line-up will grow of course. But the EOS-M, it's too limiting, and it looks it will never get anything like a 600 or 800mm lens. But I don't want to spend 4000$ on a FF body for reach, while not being able to have light weight UWA solutions. 
The EOS-M does look like a dead-end from an engineering perspective (lens communication protocol). An RF-S would give the users the easy solution like there was with EF/EF-S. And I think it is less development work for Canon than to maintain two mounts.
#10
(07-12-2020, 12:50 PM)photonius Wrote: The big question with the RF mount was, if there were ever APS-C bodies coming.
Canon's stance is there are two mounts, RF (full frame) and EF-M (APS-C), the latter for small consumer oriented products. However, the EF-M line remains limited.
The new 600mm and 800mm lenses, while specialist, are really inexpensive (and light), and suited
for the enthusiast masses  (birders etc.). In theory they could go well with EF-M.
But I doubt that Canon will release them for EF-M. It looks like EF-M will remain a consumer segment with a smallish lens selection, with the usual kit zooms and a few primes.

I guess a reasonable compact RF body with high pixel density could be made, so that no APS-C specific
body is called for. However, there is the cost issue, APS-C is cheaper, and compact EF-S 10-18 and EF-S 18-55 like Kit lenses could only be made with a smaller image circle. The current 24-105 is quite light, but lacks the UWA.
Currently it doesn't look like a APS-C like body will be forthcoming. Birders have to stick the 600/800 mm lenses on a high megapixel FF body.

In the very long run though, Canon probably will have to abandon EF-M, simply because the RF communication protocol can do so much more.  So, will there ever be an RF-S line, or is that also being eaten by the smartphones. These 600 and 800 lenses are quite unexpected, and suggest the Canon is gearing the RF line now also towards lower budgets, but probably stays exclusively FF, at least for the foreseeable future?
Thoughts?
Concerning the RF lens protocol:
It is fully EF backward compatible, and has more contacts. EF-M  could have a version II, where they add more contacts (the room is there), and have a similar protocol to RF and keep EF-M version I backward compatibility.

Canon sells a lot of FF lenses compared to APS-C lenses, simply because most lens buyers have FF or FF and a smaller format. This explains the rather standard APS-C  line up.
Of course, a few who would like to use RF FF lenses on EF-M will be disappointed. 

EF-M has the big advantage over RF of much smaller bodies possible due to the smaller diameter, and small is a big seller in the mirrorless APS-C segment.
  


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