•  Previous
  • 1
  • ...
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8(current)
  • 9
  • Next 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Canon EOS M5 announced
#71
Quote:About shutter shock and IBIS:
This is like - We have a plan to cross the Himalayas and you state the biggest obstacle is the small hill just beyond town. 
 
We don't know the shutter of the M5 yet so we'll have to see.
We know the shutter, like the M, M2, M3 and M10 is a hybrid single blade shutter (Electronic first curtain and mechanical second curtain shutter).
#72
Quote:Also, the implementation of a full electronic shutter raises the noise floor and lowers the DR.
 

BC, this is incorrect.

Again, this specific issue only affect some mirrorless cameras, not all of them. Olympus and Fuji cameras do not suffer from a decrease in DR.

 

Quote:Full electronic shutters get implemented anyway, for two reasons that I know of: to prevent blur caused by the energy of the shutter, especially with IBIS cameras. And to implement silent shooting.
 
 

I'm quite surprised your forgot another very important reason: the ability to shoot at a speed way beyond the mechanical shutter like at 1/32000 for instance (thanks Fuji).

It means one can shoot at f1.2 or f1.4 in bright day light. The only other way to do this would be to use a ND filter which is an annoyance, especially when you don't want to mess around when the family is waiting.

 

Again, rolling shutter is rarely an issue, unless one shoots fast action.
--Florent

Flickr gallery
#73
Quote:BC, this is incorrect.
Again, this specific issue only affect some mirrorless cameras, not all of them. Olympus and Fuji cameras do not suffer from a decrease in DR.
Since it affects others it can't be incorrect, can it? Maybe Olympus and Fuji have fast enough read out for 12 receptively 14 bits, but the Sony sensors apparently do not, nor does the GH4 which drops from 12 to 10 bits.
Quote:I'm quite surprised your forgot another very important reason: the ability to shoot at a speed way beyond the mechanical shutter like at 1/32000 for instance (thanks Fuji).
It means one can shoot at f1.2 or f1.4 in bright day light. The only other way to do this would be to use a ND filter which is an annoyance, especially when you don't want to mess around when the family is waiting.
You are correct, that it allows Fuji to implement very short exposure times. But the slow read out times make for rolling shutter effects even with very short exposure times.
Quote:Again, rolling shutter is rarely an issue, unless one shoots fast action.
Rolling shutter is already an issue when bikers pass the scene, or driving cars.
Two rolling shutter examples from the Olympus E-M5 Mark II:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-llpwz1XLig8/VS...050142.JPG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-llpwz1XLig8/VS...050142.JPG

Rolling shutter due to electronic shutter with Fuji X-T1:
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/52...ormat=750w
Same subject with mechanical shutter Fuji X-T1:
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/52...ormat=750w

Other issues with electronic shutter:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56499436
Thee you have a camera shake issue ruining a shot with short exposure time but movement due to the very slow read out.

Then there is the next issue: the inability to sync with flash with (the current) electronic shutters.

Electronic global shutters, which should be the cure, impact low light performance and DR.

Canon, and Fuji together with Panasonic, have filed patents for improved global shutters, so sensor manufacturers are working on solutions.

To be frank, I rather use my 3 stop ND filter on my 55mm f1.2's than having the low read out speed making 1/25th sec motion issues in my 1/8000 sec. exposures...
#74
If rolling shutter is no issue, artificial fluorescent light can be one. The Fujis don't like those lightsources and can show banding. 

#75
Quote:If rolling shutter is no issue, artificial fluorescent light can be one. The Fujis don't like those lightsources and can show banding.
Of course rolling shutter is an issue, see above linked images.
Or this 1/8000th sec Fuji image:
http://images.x100forum.com/images/hand.jpg
Or here:http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rSyNPOD6xN4/VE...120233.jpg
Or this Sony A7R II image at 1/1600th sec:
http://www.donsmithblog.com/wp-content/u...hutter.jpg

And every camera with full electronic shutter (with sensors without global shutter) have issues with such lights, not just Fuji.
#76
Quote:Since it affects others it can't be incorrect, can it? Maybe Olympus and Fuji have fast enough read out for 12 receptively 14 bits, but the Sony sensors apparently do not, nor does the GH4 which drops from 12 to 10 bits.

You are correct, that it allows Fuji to implement very short exposure times. But the slow read out times make for rolling shutter effects even with very short exposure times.

Rolling shutter is already an issue when bikers pass the scene, or driving cars.

Two rolling shutter examples from the Olympus E-M5 Mark II:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-llpwz1XLig8/VS...050142.JPG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-llpwz1XLig8/VS...050142.JPG


Rolling shutter due to electronic shutter with Fuji X-T1:
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/52...ormat=750w

Same subject with mechanical shutter Fuji X-T1:
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/52...ormat=750w


Other issues with electronic shutter:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56499436

Thee you have a camera shake issue ruining a shot with short exposure time but movement due to the very slow read out.


Then there is the next issue: the inability to sync with flash with (the current) electronic shutters.


Electronic global shutters, which should be the cure, impact low light performance and DR.


Canon, and Fuji together with Panasonic, have filed patents for improved global shutters, so sensor manufacturers are working on solutions.
 

As far as a potential DR drop goes if the supposed difference can't be measured, then it's irrelevant. That's where Fuji and Olympus stands. Unless you have some kind of proof that shows otherwise, again it's just talk. I took test shots with both the mechanical and the electronic shutter. After adjusting the exposure and pixel peeping like crazy, I couldn't see any significant difference. The net result? Electronic shutter on Oly and Fuji doesn't affect DR. Again: this is not the case in some other cameras.

 

I never said rolling shutter is never an issue. I said that it seldom happens in my use of the camera. If you photograph moving stuff you're more likely to encounter it obviously. But the thing is: in real life, it's a rare occurance. I only encountered it a couple of times in hundreds or thousands of shots. Yes, I don't take pictures of moving cars or sports.

Now: have you experienced it first hand? It's easy to find stuff on the internet, but what your hand picked examples don't show is how rarely it happens.

--Florent

Flickr gallery
#77
Quote:As far as a potential DR drop goes if the supposed difference can't be measured, then it's irrelevant. That's where Fuji and Olympus stands. Unless you have some kind of proof that shows otherwise, again it's just talk. I took test shots with both the mechanical and the electronic shutter. After adjusting the exposure and pixel peeping like crazy, I couldn't see any significant difference. The net result? Electronic shutter on Oly and Fuji doesn't affect DR. Again: this is not the case in some other cameras.

 

I never said rolling shutter is never an issue. I said that it seldom happens in my use of the camera. If you photograph moving stuff you're more likely to encounter it obviously. But the thing is: in real life, it's a rare occurance. I only encountered it a couple of times in hundreds or thousands of shots. Yes, I don't take pictures of moving cars or sports.

Now: have you experienced it first hand? It's easy to find stuff on the internet, but what your hand picked examples don't show is how rarely it happens.
Of course it does not rerely happen, the very slow read outs make sure it happens quite often.

How can I experience it "first hand" if I do not use any camera with full electronic shutter yet no global electronic shutter?

That is the same as asking me if I experienced 1st hand that my italian sports car from a well known brand went up in flames due to the kind of glue used near the hot engine bay, when I do nit have such an italian sports car.

 

Lets explain it this way, to get the impact clear. Lets say we have a camera which is able to shoot upto 1/32000th sec exposures, with a CMOS sensor without global shutter. Lets assume it takes 1/25th of a second to read out that sensor from top to bottom. 

It will impact ANY scene where slow exposure times of 1/25th sec or slower would produce some form of motion blur. But instead of blur, you get sharp but deformed subjects instead.

Biking people, walking/running people/animals, moving windmills, trains, cars, planes, flags in the wind, images taken from moving planes, and so on and so on, all will show some form of rolling shutter issue.


Where DR is concerned, my position should be known by now. If a camera has enough DR, like my 6D, it is pointless to keep on ranting for more DR, unless one has heavy shadow lifting as hobby.

But others apparently say they find high DR important, and for those the impact of lower DR due to use of full electronic shutter will be an issue.

#78
Quote:Of course it does not rerely happen, the very slow read outs make sure it happens quite often.

How can I experience it "first hand" if I do not use any camera with full electronic shutter yet no global electronic shutter?

That is the same as asking me if I experienced 1st hand that my italian sports car from a well known brand went up in flames due to the kind of glue used near the hot engine bay, when I do nit have such an italian sports car.
 

Exactly. You have zero experience with it, so you have no clue as to how often it happens in a particular use case.

Fact: I use it all the time in bright condition to shoot wide-open portraits of my daughter. If it happened as often as you claim, I'd stop using it entirely and use ND filters instead. Yet I don't. Why? Because it seldom happens.

Again: I'm not shooting passing cars or fans.

 

 

Quote:Where DR is concerned, my position should be known by now. If a camera has enough DR, like my 6D, it is pointless to keep on ranting for more DR, unless one has heavy shadow lifting as hobby.

But others apparently say they find high DR important, and for those the impact of lower DR due to use of full electronic shutter will be an issue.
 
 

I don't care about your position as far as DR go. What I care about is for you to show me where you saw evidence that Fuji or Oly's electronic shutter reduces DR. If you have no proof, then your statement is just an opinion, nothing more.
--Florent

Flickr gallery
#79
Quote:Exactly. You have zero experience with it, so you have no clue as to how often it happens in a particular use case.

Fact: I use it all the time in bright condition to shoot wide-open portraits of my daughter. If it happened as often as you claim, I'd stop using it entirely and use ND filters instead. Yet I don't. Why? Because it seldom happens.

Again: I'm not shooting passing cars or fans.

 

 

 

I don't care about your position as far as DR go. What I care about is for you to show me where you saw evidence that Fuji or Oly's electronic shutter reduces DR. If you have no proof, then your statement is just an opinion, nothing more.
Did you actually read my response to your post? Re-read it, please.

 

And ddi I write anywhere that using full electronic shutters for portraits of posing daughters should show rolling shutter?

Come on.
#80
Quote:Did you actually read my response to your post? Re-read it, please.

 

And ddi I write anywhere that using full electronic shutters for portraits of posing daughters should show rolling shutter?

Come on.
 

This is what you wrote: "But others apparently say they find high DR important, and for those the impact of lower DR due to use of full electronic shutter will be an issue."

 

Where is the proof to this general statement ? My point, which you keep ignoring, is that Fuji and Olympus don't suffer from this.

 

Oh and I only wish my daughter was always posing!
--Florent

Flickr gallery
  
  •  Previous
  • 1
  • ...
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8(current)
  • 9
  • Next 


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread:
2 Guest(s)