[Comte]

Hi folks!



I have recently remarked that the settings sharpness and saturation on my digital cameras (Pentax K10D and Sigma DP1s) also affect RAW images.

Until now I have supposed that these settings only play their roll when directly shooting JPGs. Since I generally take photos in RAW, I didn't pay attention to these parameters.



Can you tell me how sharpness and saturation settings modify the RAW image? I suppose this is a tool to adapt camera internal noise reduction?

How can I set these parameters to get the results the less processed by the camera?

From my point of view, the camera should not modify the acquired image at all.



Any comments welcome!

Comté

[Rainer]

I don't see a reason, why sharpness, saturation (and contrast) as well as the white-balance setting

should have an impact on the raw image data stored in the rawfile. However, the preview image, which is

calculated in-camera has used these parameters, and also, histogram calculation might have used

them as well. Also ... the settings of all those various parameters are at least stored within the rawfile,

even if the value had no influence on the image data so far.



When it comes to processing the rawfile in your computer, it might depend on the program you use

(and on the settings within the program) if those parameters have an impact or not ... I can only speak

for the Canon world here ... but there might be parallels in the Pentax world as well ... Canons raw processor (DPP) uses the camera parameters as well as picture styles as default values for the conversion ...

you can of course modify all values, but the startpoint is the same as the camera used to process the

preview image. Other raw converters might completely ignore all in-camera settings ... those will

obviously produce different results as DPP does, when used with everything set to defaults.



So, yes, parameters might have an impact on the result of the raw conversion ... they should not have an

impact on the raw data itself. (Except those settigs, that directly influence the exposure ... like iso-setting,

high-tone-priority but also noise-reduction and dark-frame substraction).



Just my 2cts ... Rainer

[wim]

Although Rainer is quite right in his assessments of RAW vs. jpeg, some cameras actually do make alterations in-camera to the captured image data before saving it to RAW.



This is one of the reasons why some cameras are great for astronomy use, and others aren't, as they may treat stars f.e. as noise or aberrations to be corrected.



Kind regards, Wim

[Guest]

[quote name='wim' date='30 June 2010 - 12:38 AM' timestamp='1277854732' post='757']

Although Rainer is quite right in his assessments of RAW vs. jpeg, some cameras actually do make alterations in-camera to the captured image data before saving it to RAW.



This is one of the reasons why some cameras are great for astronomy use, and others aren't, as they may treat stars f.e. as noise or aberrations to be corrected.



Kind regards, Wim

[/quote]





Wim, I have never noticed this on my Canon cameras. Would I be correct in assuming that the Canon 5D MKII does not save changes to RAW files before saving?



Thanks, Pinhole

[Rainer]

[quote name='wim' date='30 June 2010 - 01:38 AM' timestamp='1277854732' post='757']

Although Rainer is quite right in his assessments of RAW vs. jpeg, some cameras actually

do make alterations in-camera to the captured image data before saving it to RAW.

[/quote]



But for saturation, contrast and sharpness, you would be required to do the deconvolution

(in order to get true rgb-pixel-values) from the bayer-data. Are you saying, some cameras

do this, modify the resulted data in "rgb-space" and then convolute back to bayer-data and

finally store as raw? Or do the always do the deconvolution in-camera and always store

an rgb-image as raw?

[joachim]

Hi,



on my Olympus cameras, these settings of the camera get noted inside the RAW files (ORF in case of Olympus). A number of RAW converters (e.g. Oly Master) read this and process the image with these settings. If I don't like it, I can always override them in the converter. To my knowledge the actual image data in the file is not affected by the camera settings.



The Adobe ACR, which I use via PSE6, only seems to pick up the white balance setting and ignores sharpness, saturation etc.



Not sure how other companies deal with this.



J.

[Guest]

I believe the XSi does the same thing (and all canon cameras). One thing I discovered recently is the Xsi applies lum. noise reduction to jpg and there is no way to turn it off. Anyways DPP seems to use the values from the raw files unless you change them.



[quote name='joachim' date='30 June 2010 - 09:44 AM' timestamp='1277887460' post='761']

Hi,



on my Olympus cameras, these settings of the camera get noted inside the RAW files (ORF in case of Olympus). A number of RAW converters (e.g. Oly Master) read this and process the image with these settings. If I don't like it, I can always override them in the converter. To my knowledge the actual image data in the file is not affected by the camera settings.



The Adobe ACR, which I use via PSE6, only seems to pick up the white balance setting and ignores sharpness, saturation etc.



Not sure how other companies deal with this.



J.

[/quote]

[wim]

[quote name='Pinhole' date='30 June 2010 - 04:01 AM' timestamp='1277863281' post='758']

Wim, I have never noticed this on my Canon cameras. Would I be correct in assuming that the Canon 5D MKII does not save changes to RAW files before saving?



Thanks, Pinhole

[/quote]

No, Canon camerasand in-camera processing are ok in this regard. Actually captured data are saved to the RAW files, although as with any camera some processing is done upon reading of th evalues from the sensor, amongst others, in order to cover for values overshooting on high contrast transitions (boundary effects). This is a fix for technical sensor limitations, however, nothing similar to postprocessing of the actual image data.



IOW, corrections for the limitations of sensor stored voltages and the A/D conversion processes, nothing else.



Kind regards, Wim

[wim]

[quote name='you2' date='30 June 2010 - 11:39 AM' timestamp='1277890773' post='762']

I believe the XSi does the same thing (and all canon cameras). One thing I discovered recently is the Xsi applies lum. noise reduction to jpg and there is no way to turn it off. Anyways DPP seems to use the values from the raw files unless you change them.

[/quote]

That is true for jpeg, yes, not for RAW, however. See my reply to pinhole as well. It can actually be turned off in DPP, but I can't remember how as I don't use DPP anymore. I can remember using curves etc. with DPP for RAW conversion and indeed endign up with soemthign different, deliberately, to the jpeg generated from camera settings in the profiles etc. Personally, I normally use either DxO Optics or PS.



Kind regards, Wim

[Guest]

I know it can be turned off in DPP; and it is very easy to do so; just means an extra step for processing the raw. Bit of a pain since I copy images to my linux box raid drive from the camera; then I have to copy the files to local disk on the window machine to process (I shoot raw+jpg so I can use jpg if they are good enough). The problem here is that DPP will not allow me to access the samba (network) drive exported by the linux box (this is the first software I used that would not allow that). Copying the files is not a huge deal but annoying. Anyways for the xsi i was amazed how much detail was lost by the jpg out of camera due to slight (level 2) lum. noise reduction being applied by the camera; on the other hand it wasn't needed in the first place for iso 100 images I was taken. Other than that I'm fairly happy with the xsi. Very tempted to get the 5dmk2 but don't really want to deal with the weight/(and more so) bulk.



[quote name='wim' date='30 June 2010 - 12:31 PM' timestamp='1277897505' post='765']

That is true for jpeg, yes, not for RAW, however. See my reply to pinhole as well. It can actually be turned off in DPP, but I can't remember how as I don't use DPP anymore. I can remember using curves etc. with DPP for RAW conversion and indeed endign up with soemthign different, deliberately, to the jpeg generated from camera settings in the profiles etc. Personally, I normally use either DxO Optics or PS.



Kind regards, Wim

[/quote]